How to listen when you disagree • Hacker News Board

Re: How to listen when you disagree

#81

Post by hashkb » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 10:53 PM UTC

zw123456 wrote: post #61

I love the sentiment that the author was trying to convey. The example that was provided was beautiful. It is really important to realize that usually it does not work out as beautifully as was presented in this particular example. My experience in active listening is that perhaps 1 out of 20 times do you get a good outcome as was the case in this example. Generally, the person will simply yell things at you about th…

If you keep your mouth shut most of the time, and listen, as the article suggests... you'd have better outcomes. Although you may have to redefine "good outcome"... if you're hoping that by listening more you'll be more effective at persuasion, that's missing the point (but true).

Re: How to listen when you disagree

#82

Post by zzalpha » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 10:54 PM UTC

fatbird wrote: post #80

zzalpha wrote: post #5

Eh, perhaps I'm cynical, but listening to someone, and coming to understanding regarding how they might have developed there beliefs, sounds nice, and it's very compassionate, but I question if it's actually a step toward compromise, or simply understanding. After all, for an increasing number of issues, in the end, the beliefs themselves are so polarized they leave no room for compromise. To this woman, it doesn't m…

By actually listening to her, he found that she doesn't have an intractable philosophical opposition to abortion. Her opposition to abortion is rooted in her insecurity because her husband left her because she's barren; she feels like she's failed at being a woman, so other women getting abortions feels like a spiteful act to her. Clearly, there is in fact room for compromise with her. At that point, the author could…

By actually listening to her, he found that she doesn't have an intractable philosophical opposition to abortion.

Actually, we don't know that either way.

We understand where her philosophical position takes root. That's it.

On its own that's certainly interesting.

Whether or not there's flexibility in that position, though, is a question that remains unanswered.

Clearly, there is in fact room for compromise with her.

I'm curious, what, in the post, leads you to that conclusion?

Re: How to listen when you disagree

#83

Post by justratsinacoat » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 10:55 PM UTC

whiddershins wrote: post #41

justratsinacoat wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I make a serious effort to nurture relationships with people who hold beliefs very different from mine, some of these beliefs I even consider ethically flawed, or counterfactual. And yet I get so much out of talking and especially listening to these people explain their beliefs to me. I feel grateful to have the opportunity to see the world through other lenses, and I have learned and grown as a result Honest questi…

I have changed opinions on certain topics, for example my thoughts about gun control and libertarianism are more nuanced than years ago. I can articulate many viewpoints extremely clearly which I don't happen to hold, which means if I am in a debating mood I can much more precisely debate someone, rather than simply dismissing them. I repeatedly realize my own opinions are sometimes based on unexamined assumptions, w…

A more concise and convincing presentation than the article itself. Thanks!

Re: How to listen when you disagree

#84

Post by drudru11 » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 10:56 PM UTC

This is beautiful.

Re: How to listen when you disagree

#85

Post by SapphireSun » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 10:56 PM UTC

bcoates wrote: post #73

"Hear the Biography, not the ideology" This is just another way of attacking someone else's position, with the added bonus of letting you be intolerably smug while you do it. You're not communicating in good faith unless you're willing to concede the possibility that the other person is actually right about something. At the very least you need to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. This, on the othe…

Yes and no... you can easily turn this technique around on yourself. People often hold abstract beliefs for concrete reasons, and it's often more important to get to those concrete things as it's a much more powerful basis to understand them. It might get you somewhere in understanding why other people hold the opposing view (allowing you to argue more effectively) or you might learn something. Regardless, you're more likely to make a friend even if you continue to disagree.

Re: How to listen when you disagree

#86

Post by hashkb » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 10:56 PM UTC

bcoates wrote: post #73

"Hear the Biography, not the ideology" This is just another way of attacking someone else's position, with the added bonus of letting you be intolerably smug while you do it. You're not communicating in good faith unless you're willing to concede the possibility that the other person is actually right about something. At the very least you need to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. This, on the othe…

I think you may have read into this too far and/or protected a bit much onto it. How do you figure the OP is helping you attack an opposing position?

Re: How to listen when you disagree

#87

Post by woodandsteel » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 10:57 PM UTC

zzalpha wrote: post #5

Eh, perhaps I'm cynical, but listening to someone, and coming to understanding regarding how they might have developed there beliefs, sounds nice, and it's very compassionate, but I question if it's actually a step toward compromise, or simply understanding. After all, for an increasing number of issues, in the end, the beliefs themselves are so polarized they leave no room for compromise. To this woman, it doesn't m…

>for an increasing number of issues, in the end, the beliefs themselves are so polarized they leave no room for compromise.

That's quite true. But what is often going on in this sort of a situation is a self-perpetuating pattern in which poor listening, anger, fear, attacking the other side, and rigidly clinging to extreme positions all reinforce each other.

What mutual listening can do in many cases is change this into a much better self-reinforcing pattern in which people calm down, become more understanding, and become more fact-oriented and realistic in their thinking, and this in turn makes it possible to reach a good agreement such as on governmental policy.

I am not saying this always works, but I think it should be one of our standard approaches, and everyone ought to know and practice it, as appropriate.

Re: How to listen when you disagree

#88

Post by austinjp » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 10:57 PM UTC

emcrazyone wrote: post #66

woodandsteel wrote: post #4

This is excellent. I think if there is one thing that might actually happen that could make the world a better place, it would be if people listened to each other more. A couple of hints. One is that I think the easiest way to start doing this is to practice active listening, which is just saying back to the other person the main ideas and feelings they are expressing. This a simple rule, though it can be hard to fol…

agreed.. I live by a motto that goes: First, seek to understand and then seek to be understood. Active listening definitely works for me!

That's excellent. So succinct, so valuable. Thank you.

Re: How to listen when you disagree

#89

Post by throwanem » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 10:58 PM UTC

zzalpha wrote: post #78

throwanem wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Offended" is the wrong word. "Pissed off" is closer. That probably seems not very fair to you, but you're far from the first person in a short space of time whom I've seen fail to recognize the fact that, while understanding the other person's perspective certainly isn't guaranteed to lead to compromise, it just as certainly is the only thing that can . The really infuriating thing is how close to it you come, and a…

You talk about compassion, but only so you can dismiss it offhand on your way to a multi-paragraph denunciation of the way she and people like her are just so unreasonable. I denounced nothing. I said her beliefs are her beliefs and that they are unlikely to be shaken purely because someone listened to her. You read malice into a comment where none was present. You read judgement into a comment where none was given.…

> I said her beliefs are her beliefs and that they are unlikely to be shaken purely because someone listened to her.

Less likely than because someone didn't?

Re: How to listen when you disagree

#90

Post by woodandsteel » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 11:01 PM UTC

whiddershins wrote: post #41

justratsinacoat wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I make a serious effort to nurture relationships with people who hold beliefs very different from mine, some of these beliefs I even consider ethically flawed, or counterfactual. And yet I get so much out of talking and especially listening to these people explain their beliefs to me. I feel grateful to have the opportunity to see the world through other lenses, and I have learned and grown as a result Honest questi…

I have changed opinions on certain topics, for example my thoughts about gun control and libertarianism are more nuanced than years ago. I can articulate many viewpoints extremely clearly which I don't happen to hold, which means if I am in a debating mood I can much more precisely debate someone, rather than simply dismissing them. I repeatedly realize my own opinions are sometimes based on unexamined assumptions, w…

Very well put. I would just add that I usually find that, while I may disagree with the course of action the person is advocating, I can still see that the deeper ends they see it as achieving have some legitimacy.