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Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

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Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#121

Post by pvaldes »

zipwitch wrote: post #11
transfire wrote: post #7

Everyone knows that Orcas are the assholes of the sea.

Only some of them. The transient orca are the ones who eat mammals and don't have large social groupings. The resident orca have larger (matriarchal) social groups and don't eat other mammals , just fish. It's always amazing to me that we have multiple intelligent (how intelligent is uncertain), social species right here on our own planet, and we spend such a tiny fraction of our energies as a society trying to commu…

Some cetologists think that Killer whale is not one species, but a cryptic species complex, with (at least) four very related and very similar (but not identically marked) species. Different ecotypes seem avoiding to breed with each other and are evolving independently.

Both 'transient' and 'type B' eat marine mammals. Some 'type A' chase cetaceans also. The smaller of all 'Type C' eat fishes. Some species mix in a gradient and things can get very complicated. In the end we could have only one or up to nine species of killer whales here.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#122

Post by Aelinsaar »

Kapow wrote: post #83
Aelinsaar wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be quite the impressive bit of generalized cognition and logic from a whale, perhaps even more significant than feeling something.

It wouldn't need to involve cognition and logic, it could be evolutionary coincidence: humpback whales with behavior that happens to result in fewer orcas nearby would have more surviving offspring, so this behavior would be selected for.

Right, right, I missed that completely, damn!

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#123

Post by jdmichal »

nostrebored wrote: post #113
jdmichal wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your definition of altruism? I let a guy behind me at the grocery check-out in front. He had one item and I had an entire belt full, and the express lines (for low item counts) were all closed. Why? Because I know that situation sucks, and it's what I would have wanted to happen for myself. Does that make it egoist? I don't know. I never expect to see that person again; I never expect anything to result from t…

The gp will find some way to construe your actions as selfish because doing selfless things is harder to understand for them than the mental gymnastics of figuring out what you're trying to get from the situation. People who are selfish assholes are usually unable to empathize with people who do selfless things, probably because they're bad at empathizing in general.

GP might possibly be what I've heard referred to as a "transactional" personality -- every interaction is a transaction and the goal is to extract value from the transaction. These are the people you see on caller ID and mutter, "What do they want now?", because they only contact you when they want something. And, of course, people do have a tendency to attribute to others the same motivations as themselves.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#124

Post by kbenson »

Digit-Al wrote: post #118
kps wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

‘Behaviour’ was the wrong word for me to use. I should have said, dogs are the worst place to look for human-like internal mental state. If your dog looks contrite when they've done something wrong, do they feel contrite, or have they just mechanically evolved to make you think they do?

They don't have to have done something wrong. Years ago I had a lurcher, raised from a pup. One day I noticed that if you spoke to him in a stern manner - even if he had done absolutely nothing wrong he would hang his head low and look up at you, and put his tail between his legs as if he was guilty of something bad and wanted to look contrite. It seems to me that it may be a long ago learned, now instinctive, behavi…

It might have a simpler explanation. Maybe what you are seeing isn't guilt, but submission, and you are mistaking it for guilt. When spoken to a certain way, submission is the correct social response. This is true in people as well. If you have a work superior approach you in an angry manner, your best option is likely not to respond angrily or indifferently.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#125

Post by jdmichal »

allendoerfer wrote: post #82
jdmichal wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you believe in free will at all? Or is everything just a deterministic chemical cascade of inputs and outputs, in which case the answer to all this discussion is "mu". [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28negative%29

Ah, you got me. Indeed I think so, but I find it nice that the complexity of the universe hides it from us and it only occasionally comes up in discussions like this. Thanks for the interesting link.

> I find it nice that the complexity of the universe hides it from us and it only occasionally comes up in discussions like this.

I agree. I find arguments for lack of free will strange. If we don't have it, then what's the point of anything, including arguing whether we have it? It's not about being right or wrong for me, but rather that I'll always accept the illusion of free will, because anything else is just boring and depressing.

And who knows, maybe in the end we'll discover that there's randomized quantum effects that break the determinism. While not quite free will, at least it's an out from the boring and depressing alternative.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#126

Post by mundo »

Digit-Al wrote: post #117
mundo wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the sacrifices I make for my kids feel like the exact opposite of self-gain. "Do something I want to do" vs "do something the kid would benefit from" is a choice presented to every parent every day. I don't think that the possibility that the latter might have some indirect self-benefit keeps it from being an act of altruism, for any reasonable definition of altruism. I mean, "some kind of evolutionary advant…

That's easy to answer. Taking care of your children is not aultruism, it's a genetic inevitability. Your genes have a 'selfish' desire to propogate themselves into the future. Your children are the means of doing this. To protect this investment your genes have gifted you with hormones that make you a happy and willing slave to these little bundles of genetic immortality. :-)

This is a cop-out. There is nothing anyone does that couldn't be plausibly cast as an evolutionary imperative. You gave your kid the last bite of your dinner? Obviously you were trying to maximize his chance of surviving and reproducing. You kept the last bite for yourself? Obviously you were nourishing yourself to ensure your ability to provide for your kids in the future. You gave the last bite to the neighbor's kid? You must have been supporting your community because your kids thrive when your tribe thrives. You sent it off to starving children in Africa? Clearly you were trying to cultivate a reputation of charitable giving in order to increase your status in the tribe. This is a parlor game, not a reasonable way to talk about whether whales can display behavior we usually associate only with humans.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#127

Post by marg0t »

electic wrote: post #4
japhyr wrote: post #2

Humpbacks are amazing animals. I live in southeast Alaska, and humpbacks pass through here every spring and fall. They spend their winters in Hawaii where they mate, and they come back here to feed in the spring and summer. When they first arrive in the spring you can see their vertebrae as they arch their back for a dive. After eating all summer, you can see how much they've filled out by the time they pass through…

I just went to Alaska. It was my first time and I couldn't believe the amazing beauty I've seen. I would love to go back. You mentioned kayaking, any suggestions on where to go?

Where did you go? I would recommend checking out Seward and Cordova.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#128

Post by allendoerfer »

jdmichal wrote: post #125
allendoerfer wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, you got me. Indeed I think so, but I find it nice that the complexity of the universe hides it from us and it only occasionally comes up in discussions like this. Thanks for the interesting link.

> I find it nice that the complexity of the universe hides it from us and it only occasionally comes up in discussions like this. I agree. I find arguments for lack of free will strange. If we don't have it, then what's the point of anything, including arguing whether we have it? It's not about being right or wrong for me, but rather that I'll always accept the illusion of free will, because anything else is just bor…

We are tiny unimportant ants on a tiny and unimportant planet floating meaningless through time and space and yet we are alive and are at the same time already distanced so far from the act of surviving. I think there is no point in anything, but consciousness and thoughts are a pretty awesome compensation to me.

I personally believe that quantum effects don't break the determinism, just because I like to. Otherwise there is more space for a god and I am to lazy to invent my own, while I am absolutely certain that the current ideas of him are wrong. I like the idea that there has been something at the beginning much more. Then it can be something simple like "time does not flow linearly" and you are done.

In the end it does not matter whether we will take even more blue pills or somehow get to experience the red pill. Either way it is a hell of a show and not boring at all.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#129

Post by electic »

electic wrote: post #4
japhyr wrote: post #2

Humpbacks are amazing animals. I live in southeast Alaska, and humpbacks pass through here every spring and fall. They spend their winters in Hawaii where they mate, and they come back here to feed in the spring and summer. When they first arrive in the spring you can see their vertebrae as they arch their back for a dive. After eating all summer, you can see how much they've filled out by the time they pass through…

I just went to Alaska. It was my first time and I couldn't believe the amazing beauty I've seen. I would love to go back. You mentioned kayaking, any suggestions on where to go?

Thank you everyone for your suggestions.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#130

Post by webXL »

idanoeman wrote: post #116
jdmichal wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your definition of altruism? I let a guy behind me at the grocery check-out in front. He had one item and I had an entire belt full, and the express lines (for low item counts) were all closed. Why? Because I know that situation sucks, and it's what I would have wanted to happen for myself. Does that make it egoist? I don't know. I never expect to see that person again; I never expect anything to result from t…

gp might claim that you did it so you could talk about it later :)

And we're more likely to talk about the things we're proud of. Just sayin'
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