Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas • Hacker News Board

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#91

Post by kps » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 4:19 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #90

kps wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, dogs are the worst possible place to look for ‘anthropomorphic’ behaviour — they've had thirty or forty thousand years of evolutionary pressure to please humans.

Well, depending on whether you are looking for naturally occurring anthropomorphic behavior, they are either the best or worst place to look. :) That is, they are probably good evidence for some emotions in animals, but fairly useless in their current incarnation as to whether it was naturally occurring. Interestingly, it's entirely possible (and likely, IMO) that they exhibited some of this behavior originally due t…

‘Behaviour’ was the wrong word for me to use. I should have said, dogs are the worst place to look for human-like internal mental state. If your dog looks contrite when they've done something wrong, do they feel contrite, or have they just mechanically evolved to make you think they do?

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#92

Post by mundo » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 4:32 PM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #65

jdimov10 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway. Moreov…

It seems like this point of view is unassailable because for every example that, in regular understanding, would be selfless behaviour, the definition of self-interest is stretched to encompass it. - Anonymous philanthropy => feelings of self worth - Low reward public service (Mother Theresa) => fame and influence - Parents sacrificing personal good for kids => some kind of evolutionary advantage - Falling on a grena…

Most of the sacrifices I make for my kids feel like the exact opposite of self-gain. "Do something I want to do" vs "do something the kid would benefit from" is a choice presented to every parent every day.

I don't think that the possibility that the latter might have some indirect self-benefit keeps it from being an act of altruism, for any reasonable definition of altruism. I mean, "some kind of evolutionary advantage" is a plausible explanation for pretty much any behavior by any animal on Earth.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#93

Post by hexagonc » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 4:35 PM UTC

jdimov10 wrote: post #50

Tosh108 wrote: post #42

It's interesting that we have such a hard time accepting the emotion of altruism both in humans and animals. The author of the articles states: "could just be revenge". Revenge is in many ways more senseless then altruism for evolutionary purposes (unless you directly attack killer whales that threaten you, but one could argue that that's a form of self-defence), but from our ego perspective it feels more intuitive,…

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway. Moreov…

I think it is easy to come up with examples of people doing purely altruistic things. One simple example would be an atheist that sacrifices himself for his country. He knows there is no reward at the end of the tunnel and may not even particularly want to do it but maybe feels it is his duty for the "greater good". Purely altruistic behavior can be justified by anyone who is fully committed to, say, utilitarianism and I'm sure there are other moral philosophies that can justify it without any consideration for personal reward.

I think you have to distinguish the case between someone doing a kind deed and feeling good versus someone doing a kind deed because they expect to feel good. Feeling good because you did something good is involuntary and for most people unavoidable. It can be a side-effect of the deed, rather than the cause.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#94

Post by Roboprog » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 4:50 PM UTC

niccaluim wrote: post #20

wcameron wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale#Types

"Transients and residents live in the same areas, but avoid each other." Not so different from humans, then.

Or elephants? Matriarchal herd vs non-breeding "rogue" males.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#95

Post by MrMullen » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 4:51 PM UTC

buserror wrote: post #27

gozur88 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't necessarily have to be altruism to make sense. Less for orcas to eat --> fewer orcas --> fewer attacks on humpback calves.

Or perhaps it makes sense to practice the skill as much as they can, so they are better at it when it comes to defend their own young?

To me, this is what it is. If young Humpbacks are vulnerable for a certain amount of time, being good at protecting them would a good idea. They can't risk losing that skill since every time they fail, a young Humpback dies.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#96

Post by kbenson » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 4:54 PM UTC

kps wrote: post #91

kbenson wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, depending on whether you are looking for naturally occurring anthropomorphic behavior, they are either the best or worst place to look. :) That is, they are probably good evidence for some emotions in animals, but fairly useless in their current incarnation as to whether it was naturally occurring. Interestingly, it's entirely possible (and likely, IMO) that they exhibited some of this behavior originally due t…

‘Behaviour’ was the wrong word for me to use. I should have said, dogs are the worst place to look for human-like internal mental state. If your dog looks contrite when they've done something wrong, do they feel contrite, or have they just mechanically evolved to make you think they do?

A good question, and very complicated. For example, what if dogs have always been capable of that emotion, but expressed it differently? What if the evolved response is not the emotion, but to match a specific behavior to the emotion? What if the evolved response is not attached to the emotion and just for our benefit, but the emotion does exist in other situations? It would be so much easier if we could accurately communicate with our dogs.

On that note, I'll leave you with this, which is wonderful: https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/4rkdit/text_we_didnt_s...

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#97

Post by Roboprog » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 4:59 PM UTC

Frenchgeek wrote: post #9

ajmurmann wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that's what those humans were that fish the whole thing empty and drag nets over the ocean floor.

We're the assholes of the land. We're just so good at it it spill over to the sea too. Let's hope one day we will be assholes in space.

Is that a new TV series this fall? I suppose it's been done, but this time, with an honest name.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#98

Post by Retric » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 5:02 PM UTC

jdimov10 wrote: post #50

Tosh108 wrote: post #42

It's interesting that we have such a hard time accepting the emotion of altruism both in humans and animals. The author of the articles states: "could just be revenge". Revenge is in many ways more senseless then altruism for evolutionary purposes (unless you directly attack killer whales that threaten you, but one could argue that that's a form of self-defence), but from our ego perspective it feels more intuitive,…

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway. Moreov…

I like most people do a lot of things out of habit. Suggesting people need complex motivations for actions completely fails to account for basic human behavior.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#99

Post by cloverich » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 5:21 PM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #65

jdimov10 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway. Moreov…

It seems like this point of view is unassailable because for every example that, in regular understanding, would be selfless behaviour, the definition of self-interest is stretched to encompass it. - Anonymous philanthropy => feelings of self worth - Low reward public service (Mother Theresa) => fame and influence - Parents sacrificing personal good for kids => some kind of evolutionary advantage - Falling on a grena…

I agree. I wonder if a better strategy would be to amend the definition of altruism to include doing something for someone else because it makes you feel good. Surely most would agree that "it makes me feel good to help someone" vs "I financially gained from helping someone" are not the same type of "selfishness" (excluding the genetic reductionist explanations).

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#100

Post by frogpelt » Thu, Aug 04, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

jdimov10 wrote: post #50

Tosh108 wrote: post #42

It's interesting that we have such a hard time accepting the emotion of altruism both in humans and animals. The author of the articles states: "could just be revenge". Revenge is in many ways more senseless then altruism for evolutionary purposes (unless you directly attack killer whales that threaten you, but one could argue that that's a form of self-defence), but from our ego perspective it feels more intuitive,…

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway. Moreov…

This says a whole lot more about you than it does about Mother Teresa or anyone else.