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Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

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Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#81

Post by hx87 »

allendoerfer wrote: post #69
Tosh108 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does believing in an emotion mean? Egotism is arguably no more real then altruism. If your "reward in the brain" statement is correct why is that egotism? If that reward system drives a father to kills himself for his child that's not very egotistic. Why in a biological system would the "self" be preferred above the larger picture? This is definitely not argued in evolutionary theory. In the end it's very much c…

I don't believe that people do altruistic things, because on a biological level we do stuff, because we like the feeling in our brain, therefore we do it for ourself, which is egotistic. Truly altruistic would be something we just do without any benefit for ourself. I just argued that this only exists on a philosophical level, not on a biological level, so I don't believe in the concept unless we agree to treat the b…

> I just argued that this only exists on a philosophical level

That definition of altruism doesn't even work on a philosophical level, since one can always level an unfalsifiable charge that /some/ part of the brain is perceiving the altruistic action as a reward.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#82

Post by allendoerfer »

jdmichal wrote: post #74
allendoerfer wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that people do altruistic things, because on a biological level we do stuff, because we like the feeling in our brain, therefore we do it for ourself, which is egotistic. Truly altruistic would be something we just do without any benefit for ourself. I just argued that this only exists on a philosophical level, not on a biological level, so I don't believe in the concept unless we agree to treat the b…

So do you believe in free will at all? Or is everything just a deterministic chemical cascade of inputs and outputs, in which case the answer to all this discussion is "mu". [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28negative%29

Ah, you got me. Indeed I think so, but I find it nice that the complexity of the universe hides it from us and it only occasionally comes up in discussions like this. Thanks for the interesting link.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#83

Post by Kapow »

Aelinsaar wrote: post #59
gozur88 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't necessarily have to be altruism to make sense. Less for orcas to eat --> fewer orcas --> fewer attacks on humpback calves.

That would be quite the impressive bit of generalized cognition and logic from a whale, perhaps even more significant than feeling something.

It wouldn't need to involve cognition and logic, it could be evolutionary coincidence: humpback whales with behavior that happens to result in fewer orcas nearby would have more surviving offspring, so this behavior would be selected for.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#84

Post by chrisbennet »

knutae wrote: post #18

Humpback whales apparently have to defend their juveniles against hunting orcas. It is surprising that they would defend other species in the same way, but it seems likely to be the same instinct that causes them to protect their own, rather than altruism. Then again, maybe you could make the same claim about humans. :-)

Maybe the whales respond to protect weaker "cute" animals in the way humans do. When we see an injured bird, we instinctively want to help it. Maybe it's a side effect of being genetically "programmed" to protect the young of our/their own species? Maybe the "pattern matching" is matching a bit more than just the same species.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#85

Post by sbov »

jdimov10 wrote: post #50
Tosh108 wrote: post #42

It's interesting that we have such a hard time accepting the emotion of altruism both in humans and animals. The author of the articles states: "could just be revenge". Revenge is in many ways more senseless then altruism for evolutionary purposes (unless you directly attack killer whales that threaten you, but one could argue that that's a form of self-defence), but from our ego perspective it feels more intuitive,…

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway. Moreov…

It's just empathy. I don't help people because it makes me feel good (it usually annoys me), I do it because it would suck to be in their situation.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#86

Post by kps »

kbenson wrote: post #76
Tosh108 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The books by Frans de Waal about this topic are very interesting. He's a dutch ethologist, researching the social behaviour and emotions of animals, mainly primates I think. Some of his quotes, source Wikipedia: "To endow animals with human emotions has long been a scientific taboo. But if we do not, we risk missing something fundamental, about both animals and us." "In chimpanzees and other animals, you see examples…

> "Dogs are a good example of a species that have and obey social rules; that's why we like them so much, even though they're large carnivores." Well, that was a good reason why we initially liked them, but the last few millennia of genetic modification through selective breeding to alter their behavior and appearance for our benefit hasn't hurt either...

Yes, dogs are the worst possible place to look for ‘anthropomorphic’ behaviour — they've had thirty or forty thousand years of evolutionary pressure to please humans.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#88

Post by kbenson »

chrisbennet wrote: post #84
knutae wrote: post #18

Humpback whales apparently have to defend their juveniles against hunting orcas. It is surprising that they would defend other species in the same way, but it seems likely to be the same instinct that causes them to protect their own, rather than altruism. Then again, maybe you could make the same claim about humans. :-)

Maybe the whales respond to protect weaker "cute" animals in the way humans do. When we see an injured bird, we instinctively want to help it. Maybe it's a side effect of being genetically "programmed" to protect the young of our/their own species? Maybe the "pattern matching" is matching a bit more than just the same species.

Many mammals are supposed to be able to recognize the your in other mammal species based on some fairly universal markers (large head to body ratio, larger facial features), and respond differently to younger and older members of a species. Many Dogs are known to have exhibited this behavior, and treat human babies distinctly different (more gently). I think you are correct and it's entirely possible is child-rearing instincts firing in response to other species that resemble their own young closely (other young whales) or superficially (other, smaller marine mammals).

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#89

Post by cygx »

finid wrote: post #45
cygx wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour It's also very easy to assume humans are more special than we actually are.

I do find it interesting that we (humans) think we are "more special" than we actually are. People just forget or don't know that the same spark that powers our physical bodies also powers the physical bodies of other living things.

And that the brains that support our minds are part of said bodies. Eg corvids with their tiny little bird brains are apparently capable of feats of intellect that are very human-like in various ways.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#90

Post by kbenson »

kps wrote: post #86
kbenson wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Dogs are a good example of a species that have and obey social rules; that's why we like them so much, even though they're large carnivores." Well, that was a good reason why we initially liked them, but the last few millennia of genetic modification through selective breeding to alter their behavior and appearance for our benefit hasn't hurt either...

Yes, dogs are the worst possible place to look for ‘anthropomorphic’ behaviour — they've had thirty or forty thousand years of evolutionary pressure to please humans.

Well, depending on whether you are looking for naturally occurring anthropomorphic behavior, they are either the best or worst place to look. :)

That is, they are probably good evidence for some emotions in animals, but fairly useless in their current incarnation as to whether it was naturally occurring. Interestingly, it's entirely possible (and likely, IMO) that they exhibited some of this behavior originally due to their social nature, and this is what causes humans to start the process of domestication in the first place (not that it was likely a decision like that).

What's really interesting is how quickly changes, both behavioral and physical happen during domestication (and how quickly domestication works, possibly on the order of a decade or so)[1].

1: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91696-new-nice/

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