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When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

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Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#251

Post by paulddraper »

erdevs wrote: post #28
sunstone wrote: post #7

The West and China are playing a global chess game and have been for some time. An impoverished China was not in the West's interests and so they agreed to buy all kinds of lowish tech Chinese made goods. In return most jurisdictions enforced a balance of trade with China, with the exception of the US. On their end China insisted on joint ventures and technology transfer to the extent Western companies would comply.…

It seems to me that China outplayed the West here by a wide margin. For some reason, the West has let China get away with extremely protectionist trade policies the likes of which no one else in the world would dare even attempt. I think this was a combination of fear that isolating China vs creating a high degree of economic interdependence could lead to war down the line, and a lack of control over Western companie…

Protectionist policies hurt the "protected" countries the most.

Smoot-Hawley

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#252

Post by Retric »

legulere wrote: post #241
Retric wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China exchanged trillions of goods at below market rates due to games with their exchange rate. This worked because the government does not care about it's populace and can extract a lot of value from an oppressed population. The populace benefited from increasing purchasing power though far less and far slower than most developing nations. I would say the US and communist party members got a great deal and the Chine…

You could also tell the very opposite story. In the last around 20 years, the poor and middle class in china greatly benefited from the economic growth, while the poor and middle class in the west didn't benefit at all or even had a wage cut if you look at inflation adjusted wages. China is hardly a developing nation anymore.

In economics you end up with a reversion to the mean over time. China was in a very bad state though terrible management over the preceding hundreds of years, so catching up was rather simple. US, is coming down from being the only modern state that was not destroyed by WWII.

US lower and middle class benefited from cheap goods, and suffered from continued automation and imports. However, the US produces more goods now than at any point in it's history so you can't really blame things on a lack of manufacturing.

IMO, I would blame 5 primary factors, massive undocumented population suppressing wages, developed economy making growth harder, tax policy's that harm workers directly and indirectly, unions shrinking, and rapid automation continuously disrupting the economy.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#253

Post by giardini »

nl wrote: post #231
giardini wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence is far more than anecdotal. Anyone who is an active tool user could provide more - ask your local mechanic. The experience I describe is almost universal and transcends the term "anecdodal". Here's some bedside reading: 'What’s in a tool? A case for Made in USA': http://hackaday.com/2016/01/18/whats-in-a-tool-a-case-for-ma... Discussion of the same: https://build.slashdot.org/story/16/01/18/213236/whats-…

I'm not from the US or China. I think that outside the US, the reputation of US-made good has never been particularly strong. We see US cars, and compare them to Japanese cars and see mostly failings. So far as Chinese goods go, I have no particular knowledge of wrenches. However, I'd note that (Chinese made) Apple products are generally of pretty good quality. I'd also point out that the ZeroHedge article doesn't re…

My point was that _everything_ I could post myself would necessarily be "anecdotal", but that anyone willing to do a google search can find millions of remarks: e.g.,

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&complete=0&hl=en&...

But you don't need to do that. Instead observe!

Go to a hardware store and try out a few tools from various countries. You'll see what I mean. _Pay_ _attention_ to the world you live in and the tools you and others use every day. In my case, my fingernail clippers failing (not one, but two pair, from different Chinese manufacturers, within weeks of each other) was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Instead of asking me to provide hard statistical evidence on these forums, I expect you internet wunderkinds to write a one-off ML tool to scrape the internet for "anecdotal" evidence, collate it, translate it with your neural net NL software, correlate it, and finally analyze it as your own statistical evidence. Maybe you'd even share it with others, but that isn't necessary.

nl: "I'd also point out that the ZeroHedge article doesn't really make a strong case that quality is decreasing at all.":

I can only assume you read an article other than the one I linked to.

And yes, I intentionally put the Onion article in there, because it is funny. But some people have no sense of humour and are unable to resist pointing out the obvious.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#254

Post by dragonwriter »

mmanfrin wrote: post #151
learc83 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In it, one of the moral cruxes of the main story was that the crew needed 'Unity'. I saw this as a subtle shift from american 'Freedom'. Teamwork is a huge theme in countless Hollywood movies. A rag tag group of misfits who has to overcome their differences and learn to work together is a classic movie trope. I don't think this has anything do with trying to appeal to Chinese audiences. Less complex (and less overal…

Certainly there is teamwork in many films, but I feel in traditional films that teamwork is to work towards the common goal of 'freedom' (abstractly). In this Star Trek movie, it came down to a struggle of power vs (explicitly) "unity". I.e., bad guy was against the idea of Unity . So in American films, unity is used as a tool to the end goal of freedom, whereas in this film the struggle was towards the ultimate goal…

Unity vs. Chaos, with a preference for the former, is a common and recurring them in American film and television which has not infrequently featured in the Star Trek franchise. Freedom vs. authority/conformity, with the preference for the former, is also a common and recurring theme in American film and TV which has not infrequently featured in the Star Trek franchise, and, yes, the two themes do have tension with each other (a tension which is, itself, another common and recurring theme in American film and television which has not infrequently featured in the Star Trek franchise.)

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#255

Post by klodolph »

nl wrote: post #236
klodolph wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're looking at the PR, look at the actual technology. Anyone can build a big enough supercomputer if you throw enough money at the problem. This high level of spending is getting hard to justify, however, because most of the problems you want to solve can't be solved just by throwing another order of magnitude of computing power at the problem. Building a supercomputer becomes a bit of a boondoggle, a public-relat…

SMIC is down to 28nm now[1]. I agree this isn't competitive yet, but they are working on 14nm[2] with some reasonably credible partners (including Qualcomm), scheduled to be delivered by 2020. That would close the gap to Intel/Samsung/TSMC to one generation. [1] http://www.smics.com/eng/press/press_releases_details.php?id... [2] http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1326948

It will be interesting. I'd call that about one and a half generations, if 10nm ships in 2017 like Intel says. Of course, it is anyone's guess whether SMIC will ship 14nm on time, or whether Intel will ship 10nm on time.

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#256

Post by Daishiman »

oblio wrote: post #145
Daishiman wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the US government or industry haven't then it's because you've never read any history.

I've read plenty and the casualties are an order of magnitude bigger on the Chinese side.

Tens of millions versus a hundred million, what a fucking victory for humanity...

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#258

Post by hollerith »

chrischen wrote: post #86
sunstone wrote: post #7

The West and China are playing a global chess game and have been for some time. An impoverished China was not in the West's interests and so they agreed to buy all kinds of lowish tech Chinese made goods. In return most jurisdictions enforced a balance of trade with China, with the exception of the US. On their end China insisted on joint ventures and technology transfer to the extent Western companies would comply.…

You make it sound like the West consciously decided to outsource to China. This is not the case, and the West would not have had the unity to be able to consciously do such a thing. Simple market dynamics caused this, albeit caused by market manipulation on China's part. China buys US debt, lowering the value of the Chinese dollars to the US dollar, making stuff in China dirt cheap.

Uh, the US government's granting China most-favored-nation trading status was certainly a conscious decision, and China would not be as far along economically if the decision had gone the other way. (Driving a wedge between China and the Soviet Union was the main reason behind the decision IIUC.)

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#259

Post by jwhitlark »

jgroch wrote: post #104
mmanfrin wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just saw the new Star Wars -- cofinanced by (e:) Alibaba films. In it, one of the moral cruxes of the main story was that the crew needed 'Unity'. I saw this as a subtle shift from american 'Freedom'. There's a point where some 'good guys' are being held prisoner. In any red-blooded American Hollywood Film, this would lead to 'GIVE US OUR FREEDOM' type resistance. In this movie, it led to 'WE NEED UNITY' resistance…

"Maybe I am reading too much in to it...." No, i don't think that you're reading too much into it. In fact, i like your analysis. I'll have to rewatch it, again. LOL especially concerning "unity" vs. "FREEDOMMM!"

Is that a Helldivers reference?

Re: When It Comes to China, Google’s Experience Still Says It All

#260

Post by xiaoma »

borvo wrote: post #170
xiaoma wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China's outperformance of Europe is undeniable. In the chart you shared China was at barely 1/20 of Europe's level a generation ago and now is over 1/3. What will the comparison be in one more generation?

China's achievements are incredibly impressive, and will likely slow down as it gets closer to parity with Western standards of living. As for outperforming - rate of growth/catching up: sure - but not (yet) in most other regards.

China is also ahead in terms of academic output, biotechnology, software and aerospace technology. Of course it hasn't been put to the test, but China's military has also likely pulled ahead of Europe.
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