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Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

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Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#51
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet the only one who sent US troops in war and partly responsible for the power vacuum which allowed ISIS to gain power is Clinton. Clinton might be saying many crazy things but he is fundamentally a business man not religious or idealistic person.

My issue with Trump is how ignorant he seems to be about everything he's asked. You might say that Clinton is dangerous, but she's not stupid. Trump IS very stupid. Also, what is this "power vacuum"that you're talking about? What are you trying to say, that if Obama was militarily more aggressive, there would be less ISIS? Weren't you just before concerned about Clinton wanting war? You can't have both.

The power vacuum comes from topping Saddam Hussein for geopolitical reasons. Opportunistic use of the September 11 attacks to open up a new era of wild-wild-west politics, where the world is up for grabs.

And we wonder that Russia feels emboldened to push its geopolitical interests? Russia needs to do that, or risk being wiped out from the world stage by an extremely aggressive US.

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#52
post #41
post #24

As a European, I am always nervous about nukes. American nukes specifically. And not so much about Trump, who is a buffoon but doesn't actually want to get too involved in messy foreign politics, but Clinton, who as a Secretary of State has already proven to be another warmonger. The US has had a blasé attitude to nuclear weapons ever since the start of the Cold War. The majority of situations where we have come clos…

The US and Russia are about even in the times where a nuclear war was possible.[1] I'd argue that Russia has come closer, a submarine was going to arm and fire missles but the second in command refused to give consent. There was another time where Russia's missle defense system showed an incoming attack. Nuclear weapons will never be used in our lifetime by a stable country. They serve only as a deterrent, don't inva…

True, but as far as I know most incidents of the USSR coming close to a nuclear strike were accidents or technical glitches. IMO it's incredibly unlikely the USSR would have had actually used nuclear weapons precisely because the military had such an aversion to actually using it.

OTOH incidents like Able Archer demonstrate exactly the kind of carelessness I'm talking about: that anyone was surprised the USSR could have mistaken a realistic, unannounced, off-schedule "simulation" near their borders for the real thing is idiotic. This kind of posturing is extremely dangerous and the US is still doing it today.

Sure, Russia and other "bad actors" are doing similar things, but the US is often going further (except for maybe the recent antics by North Korea -- which everybody expects to do ridiculously crazy things to begin with because they're a hereditary dictatorship, not a democratic republic).

That said, nuclear weapons are not a deterrent. Unless you're a sociopathic caveman, condemning all of humanity to death just because your nation state's integrity is at risk is an unimaginable atrocity. It's the ultimate war crime. Threatening the use of nuclear weapons is holding all of mankind (alive and future) hostage -- it's frankly disgusting.

Not that anyone would be able to or interested in actually having a meaningful war with the US. We're well past the age of rolling into other people's countries with tanks and planting down a flag. A war between Russia and the US would ruin both countries' economies and neither party would come out on top -- even if the US didn't have a massive army (or Russia didn't have a massive territory).

My biggest gripe wrt US vs Russia is actually that Russia and China both have an official No-First-Use policy but the US explicitly reserves the right to a nuclear first strike (not even paying lip service as a sign of good will -- because let's face it: if Russia or China violates their NFU policy against the US it's irrelevant anyway). And while Russia has been a strong proponent of nuclear disarmament since the final years of the USSR, the US has been quite the opposite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_first_use

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_disarmament

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#53
post #36
post #24

As a European, I am always nervous about nukes. American nukes specifically. And not so much about Trump, who is a buffoon but doesn't actually want to get too involved in messy foreign politics, but Clinton, who as a Secretary of State has already proven to be another warmonger. The US has had a blasé attitude to nuclear weapons ever since the start of the Cold War. The majority of situations where we have come clos…

Please don't buy this idea that Trump is just an innocent buffoon. The guy is genuinely dangerous. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j1vlMUfR_Wc

Please don't link to The Young Turks. They're on par with Fox News even if they're politically on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Again: we know Clinton's stance on war and the Middle East, Russia and China. Clinton already holds a lot of political power in the US (just look at her campaign's biggest sponsors and the Clinton Foundation -- plus the entire thing with her having been the de facto blessed Democrat candidate since before the primaries even started). Trump is an outsider who has the majority of the country against him (the GOP is still reluctant to present him as "their" candidate).

Hyperbole aside, the POTUS is not actually an autocrat. There is still a large body of bureaucracy and checks and balances preventing the POTUS from doing as (s)he pleases. Clinton would only have to worry about the Republicans, Trump would likely have everyone against him at some level.

He's not innocent, but he's significantly less dangerous. He's controllable (recently he went so far as to suggest that he would cede most of his duties to his VP -- effectively just leaving the prestige and title). Clinton is not (she already has an actual agenda and is far more nuanced when it comes to manipulating people in her favour).

Don't get me wrong: I don't want to see either of them become president. I would have loved to see Sanders win the primaries (simply because to me as a European he felt like a healthy counterbalance to the usual American politics) even though I was certain one of the other Republicans would have eventually won the election. But at this point you're basically forced to choose between Chaotic Evil with no political support (i.e. built-in limitations to the damage he can do) and Lawful Evil with an entire body of politics behind her (i.e. a lot of paved roads).

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet the only one who sent US troops in war and partly responsible for the power vacuum which allowed ISIS to gain power is Clinton. Clinton might be saying many crazy things but he is fundamentally a business man not religious or idealistic person.

My issue with Trump is how ignorant he seems to be about everything he's asked. You might say that Clinton is dangerous, but she's not stupid. Trump IS very stupid. Also, what is this "power vacuum"that you're talking about? What are you trying to say, that if Obama was militarily more aggressive, there would be less ISIS? Weren't you just before concerned about Clinton wanting war? You can't have both.

I don't know whether he's stupid, but he's wilfully ignorant. I think he genuinely just doesn't care about many topics and isn't interested in learning more about them than necessary to make some vague statements that may seem relevant.

I was extremely surprised how serious Americans take Trump as a candidate when it is so obvious the vast majority of his speeches are incoherent rambling around one or two talking points played for effect.

I mean, seriously? A wall between the US and Mexico? There is already a wall between the US and Mexico. The various specifications he gave at various points throughout the primaries are obviously figures he pulled out of his ass to paint a more visually impressive picture.

And a stop for Muslim immigrants is entirely on par for the course. Sure, any other politician would have been more nuanced and phrased it differently so it doesn't sound like it's religious discrimination but let's not pretend that racism is a new thing in the US.

Trump's campaign boils down to bar-room clichés: lazy, half-baked "solutions" to real and complex problems. None of that is likely representative of what he would actually do once elected. Just like none of the "shatter the glass ceiling" and "yay minorities" rhetorics actually represent what Clinton will do once elected.

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#55
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue with Trump is how ignorant he seems to be about everything he's asked. You might say that Clinton is dangerous, but she's not stupid. Trump IS very stupid. Also, what is this "power vacuum"that you're talking about? What are you trying to say, that if Obama was militarily more aggressive, there would be less ISIS? Weren't you just before concerned about Clinton wanting war? You can't have both.

The power vacuum comes from topping Saddam Hussein for geopolitical reasons. Opportunistic use of the September 11 attacks to open up a new era of wild-wild-west politics, where the world is up for grabs. And we wonder that Russia feels emboldened to push its geopolitical interests? Russia needs to do that, or risk being wiped out from the world stage by an extremely aggressive US.

Regarding your second paragraph, awareness amongst the US population should be risen about that. For the past 3 or so years Russia has been getting more and more nervous about the US defence shield. Its argument is that the US can use it for offence missiles which could be used to strike and neutralise its nuclear potential.

Instead of addressing the issue, the US has been playing dumb by claiming that "don't worry mate, this is against Iran not Russia!"

Now, Russia plays its own geopolitical game too, of course. And you might believe that the US defence shield poses no danger to Russia. But you have to ask yourself, what does Russia believe? Because if Russia really believes the US is making moves to neutralise its nuclear threat, it's just a matter of time until it strikes, because like you said the alternative is to be wiped out from the world stage. Don't corner a rat. Very very concerning.

And this has been some ten years in the making, since the US withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty (which the US argued at the name was so that it could build its missile defence system). This does not seem conducting of stability in the world.

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#56
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My issue with Trump is how ignorant he seems to be about everything he's asked. You might say that Clinton is dangerous, but she's not stupid. Trump IS very stupid. Also, what is this "power vacuum"that you're talking about? What are you trying to say, that if Obama was militarily more aggressive, there would be less ISIS? Weren't you just before concerned about Clinton wanting war? You can't have both.

The power vacuum comes from topping Saddam Hussein for geopolitical reasons. Opportunistic use of the September 11 attacks to open up a new era of wild-wild-west politics, where the world is up for grabs. And we wonder that Russia feels emboldened to push its geopolitical interests? Russia needs to do that, or risk being wiped out from the world stage by an extremely aggressive US.

Not just Hussein but the entire Arab Spring. Heck, the US is still trying to topple Assad although it's blindingly obvious that doing so will only strengthen ISIS in Syria.

The problem with US foreign politics is that in the face of it they seem entirely ignorant of how their actions appear to the rest of the world (and what it might mean to their interests and how they would react to that).

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not saying the US was responsible for the entire Arab spring, but the Arab Spring and the mess it caused (when the initial euphoria had ended) are part of the fallout from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#57
post #53
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't buy this idea that Trump is just an innocent buffoon. The guy is genuinely dangerous. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j1vlMUfR_Wc

Please don't link to The Young Turks. They're on par with Fox News even if they're politically on the opposite end of the spectrum. Again: we know Clinton's stance on war and the Middle East, Russia and China. Clinton already holds a lot of political power in the US (just look at her campaign's biggest sponsors and the Clinton Foundation -- plus the entire thing with her having been the de facto blessed Democrat cand…

> Please don't link to The Young Turks. They're on par with Fox News even if they're politically on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I don't understand why. They're just commenting on something that someone else reported. Are you suggesting that they're lying? Are you suggesting that they're reporting "X happened" when X actually didn't happen? I wasn't linking for their opinion, but for what they report.

But if it makes you happier, I'll link to the original source instead:

https://youtu.be/O13kaQAg5KE

Can you please do me a favour and watch that?

> He's controllable

Ok, now you're just trolling me.

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#58
post #52
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US and Russia are about even in the times where a nuclear war was possible.[1] I'd argue that Russia has come closer, a submarine was going to arm and fire missles but the second in command refused to give consent. There was another time where Russia's missle defense system showed an incoming attack. Nuclear weapons will never be used in our lifetime by a stable country. They serve only as a deterrent, don't inva…

True, but as far as I know most incidents of the USSR coming close to a nuclear strike were accidents or technical glitches. IMO it's incredibly unlikely the USSR would have had actually used nuclear weapons precisely because the military had such an aversion to actually using it. OTOH incidents like Able Archer demonstrate exactly the kind of carelessness I'm talking about: that anyone was surprised the USSR could h…

The instance with the USSR sub wasnt a glitch.

How is a training exercise the US's fault? This was a NATO operation in Europe. At the time we werent speaking to Russia very much. Military exercises happen all the time between many countries.

Lets not forget that Russia had just shot down a civilian airliner that had a US congressman on board.[1] Could you imagine if the US brought down a plane with Russian politicians on it during the cold war. When has the US ever brought down a civilian airliner? Russia just did this again last year over Ukraine.[2]

>That said, nuclear weapons are not a deterrent. Unless you're a sociopathic caveman, condemning all of humanity to death just because your nation state's integrity is at risk is an unimaginable atrocity. It's the ultimate war crime. Threatening the use of nuclear weapons is holding all of mankind (alive and future) hostage -- it's frankly disgusting.

I understand your sentiment but North Korea and Iran are currently trying to develop Nukes for this sole purpose. Your pointing all your fingers at the US but the fact is everyone else is either doing it or trying to do it.

Not to mention Russia is annexing sovereign nations.[3][4] I am not saying this meaning we should start a war with Russia but when the US "invades" somewhere we do not annex the country. The Iraq war was a huge mistake but maybe if we stayed a little longer ISIS its possible would never have happened. Unfortunately politics came into play way after the mistake. In no way am I trying to make excuses.

Here are some fresh examples of Chinese and Russian/Chinese military exercises in a disputed area.[5] Another example from 2 days ago where they are shooting missiles. [6]

Everyone wants to point fingers at the US when their own governments are either actively doing the same things, or making deals with the US to do the same thing. Spying on communications has been going on since WW2 and even before.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_...

[4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War#Aftermath

[5]http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/07/28/south...

[6]http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/08/02/asia-pacific/chi...

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#59
post #58
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but as far as I know most incidents of the USSR coming close to a nuclear strike were accidents or technical glitches. IMO it's incredibly unlikely the USSR would have had actually used nuclear weapons precisely because the military had such an aversion to actually using it. OTOH incidents like Able Archer demonstrate exactly the kind of carelessness I'm talking about: that anyone was surprised the USSR could h…

The instance with the USSR sub wasnt a glitch. How is a training exercise the US's fault? This was a NATO operation in Europe. At the time we werent speaking to Russia very much. Military exercises happen all the time between many countries. Lets not forget that Russia had just shot down a civilian airliner that had a US congressman on board.[1] Could you imagine if the US brought down a plane with Russian politician…

> When has the US ever brought down a civilian airliner?

It has happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#60
post #58
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but as far as I know most incidents of the USSR coming close to a nuclear strike were accidents or technical glitches. IMO it's incredibly unlikely the USSR would have had actually used nuclear weapons precisely because the military had such an aversion to actually using it. OTOH incidents like Able Archer demonstrate exactly the kind of carelessness I'm talking about: that anyone was surprised the USSR could h…

The instance with the USSR sub wasnt a glitch. How is a training exercise the US's fault? This was a NATO operation in Europe. At the time we werent speaking to Russia very much. Military exercises happen all the time between many countries. Lets not forget that Russia had just shot down a civilian airliner that had a US congressman on board.[1] Could you imagine if the US brought down a plane with Russian politician…

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