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Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

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Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#41

Post by Spooky23 »

rtpg wrote: post #19
zipwitch wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only some of them. The transient orca are the ones who eat mammals and don't have large social groupings. The resident orca have larger (matriarchal) social groups and don't eat other mammals , just fish. It's always amazing to me that we have multiple intelligent (how intelligent is uncertain), social species right here on our own planet, and we spend such a tiny fraction of our energies as a society trying to commu…

Out of curiosity, what are the intelligences of whales compared to, say, dogs? Do you think we'll ever reach a point where "real" communication would be possible?

Whales are usually considered smarter than dogs.

Many of the smart things that dogs do are conditioned responses -- they adapt their wiring for pack behavior to human relations and are perceptive about many emotional and other cues.

I believe that whales have been observed performing more complex creative or problem solving tasks, and can probably communicate concepts between whales.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#42

Post by Tosh108 »

It's interesting that we have such a hard time accepting the emotion of altruism both in humans and animals. The author of the articles states: "could just be revenge". Revenge is in many ways more senseless then altruism for evolutionary purposes (unless you directly attack killer whales that threaten you, but one could argue that that's a form of self-defence), but from our ego perspective it feels more intuitive, at least to the author. There are also comments in this thread that reflect this way of thinking.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#44

Post by leephillips »

5xman wrote: post #26
zipwitch wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only some of them. The transient orca are the ones who eat mammals and don't have large social groupings. The resident orca have larger (matriarchal) social groups and don't eat other mammals , just fish. It's always amazing to me that we have multiple intelligent (how intelligent is uncertain), social species right here on our own planet, and we spend such a tiny fraction of our energies as a society trying to commu…

Your comment and the parent really surprise me. Passing such moral judgements based on the diet of a species seems a bit 'youtubish'. Using the same logic one could argue that humpback whales are the real assholes since they protect those seals and sea lions so they can prey on those tiny, little penguins which are the cutest. (Seals even rape them :'( http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20141117-why-seals-have-sex-w... )

Chop last character of the url to get there.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#45

Post by finid »

cygx wrote: post #22
SeanDav wrote: post #13

If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of animals protecting and even rearing animals from other species. This could be down to genetics and learned behaviour and nothing to do with altruism, or other noble sentiments. Part of me says it is highly unlikely that Humpback whales have a vendetta against killer whales a…

it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour It's also very easy to assume humans are more special than we actually are.

I do find it interesting that we (humans) think we are "more special" than we actually are.

People just forget or don't know that the same spark that powers our physical bodies also powers the physical bodies of other living things.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#46

Post by Tosh108 »

SeanDav wrote: post #13

If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of animals protecting and even rearing animals from other species. This could be down to genetics and learned behaviour and nothing to do with altruism, or other noble sentiments. Part of me says it is highly unlikely that Humpback whales have a vendetta against killer whales a…

The books by Frans de Waal about this topic are very interesting. He's a dutch ethologist, researching the social behaviour and emotions of animals, mainly primates I think.

Some of his quotes, source Wikipedia:

"To endow animals with human emotions has long been a scientific taboo. But if we do not, we risk missing something fundamental, about both animals and us."

"In chimpanzees and other animals, you see examples of sympathy, empathy, reciprocity, a willingness to follow social rules. Dogs are a good example of a species that have and obey social rules; that's why we like them so much, even though they're large carnivores."

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#47

Post by techiferous »

SeanDav wrote: post #13

If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of animals protecting and even rearing animals from other species. This could be down to genetics and learned behaviour and nothing to do with altruism, or other noble sentiments. Part of me says it is highly unlikely that Humpback whales have a vendetta against killer whales a…

> it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour

It is also easy to assume that an animal's internal life is dumb and uninteresting.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#48

Post by gerbilly »

SeanDav wrote: post #13

If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of animals protecting and even rearing animals from other species. This could be down to genetics and learned behaviour and nothing to do with altruism, or other noble sentiments. Part of me says it is highly unlikely that Humpback whales have a vendetta against killer whales a…

>If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour.

I think that we also very easily 'anthropomorphize' human behavior; that is to say that we superimpose our own assumptions onto other people's behaviour.

We are animals too, and the rational part is only a thin, recent addition to our brains.

I believe many animals are just as intelligent as us in their own way.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#49

Post by krylon »

techiferous wrote: post #47
SeanDav wrote: post #13

If I may play Devil's advocate here - it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour. There are numerous examples in the animal kingdom of animals protecting and even rearing animals from other species. This could be down to genetics and learned behaviour and nothing to do with altruism, or other noble sentiments. Part of me says it is highly unlikely that Humpback whales have a vendetta against killer whales a…

> it is very easy to anthropomorphize animal behaviour It is also easy to assume that an animal's internal life is dumb and uninteresting.

It is a valid objection.

When a certain type of great cat kills, say, an antelope, it will look around carefully. Humans first describing this behavior assumed the cats were feeling guilty for killing and wanted to check if there were any "witnesses".

Nowadays, this behavior is interpreted as checking for hyenas, who like to snatch away prey from other predators.

I would not consider this behavior dumb or uninteresting, but it is - probably - for a different reason than a human observer might naively assume.

Being aware that animals might do things for different reasons than humans is not dismissing the animal's motives, it can be a key to understanding its behavior. It is not at all the same as assuming an animal's internal life is dumb and uninteresting, at least I do not think the GP wanted to imply that.

Re: Humpback whales around the globe are mysteriously rescuing animals from orcas

#50

Post by jdimov10 »

Tosh108 wrote: post #42

It's interesting that we have such a hard time accepting the emotion of altruism both in humans and animals. The author of the articles states: "could just be revenge". Revenge is in many ways more senseless then altruism for evolutionary purposes (unless you directly attack killer whales that threaten you, but one could argue that that's a form of self-defence), but from our ego perspective it feels more intuitive,…

I don't deny that altruism exists, but to me it's just another form of egoism. Nobody can convince me that they have ever done anything for ANY other reason than because of the belief that it will be good for them or that they'll get some sort of kick out of it. Not Mother Theresa, not anyone, ever. Because it's not possible. If you don't put your own interests first, you have nothing to give to others anyway.

Moreover, people who are not egoists freak me out. To me, such people are the ultimate hypocrites and I fell that I can't trust them with anything.

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