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Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

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21–30 of 75 posts

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#21
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always considered that if you believe nuclear deterrence is effective, it would be logical to disband the entire conventional military, and keep the nuclear weapons. The advantage would be you save an enormous amount of money, and vastly reduce the size of government. Politicians will stop being tempted to invade and interfere in other countries, and grievances against your country are reduced or eliminated. The lo…

Ah, but you always have another choice. You can always surrender. Now, sure, you might be unwilling to surrender, and willing to risk a global nuclear war, over a direct invasion of your homeland. But what about, say, a covert invasion of a remote ally under the pretext of peacekeeping? What about military support for a coup in a nearby ally? What about a gradual strangling of your trade and resource routes? Are you…

> Now, sure, you might be unwilling to surrender, and willing to risk a global nuclear war

The thing is that there is no reason to believe that a nuclear exchange is necessarily the same as national suicide or will escalate to a global nuclear conflagration. The political scientist Ken Waltz made this point quite forcefully (https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/waltz1.htm): even if one or two nuclear bombs are exchanged, there is still every incentive for the parties to calm down. What nuclear weapons do is vastly increase the risk and cost of starting a war. This is good, as wars start when politicians believe the cost is worth the benefits.

Waltz says:

"Nuclear weapons in the hands of six or seven states have lessened wars and limited conflicts. The further spread of nuclear weapons can be expected to widen those effects. Should the United States then promote the spread of nuclear weapons for the sake of peace, even though we need not for the sake of stability? To do so would replace one extreme policy with another. Present policy works hard to prevent additional states from acquiring nuclear weapons. My examination of the effects of nuclear weapons leads to the conclusion that our policy is wrong without supporting the proposition that true proliferation—the rapid spread of nuclear weaponry—is desirable. Rapid change may be destabilizing. The slow spread of nuclear weapons gives states time to learn to live with them, to appreciate their virtues, and to understand the limits they place on behaviour."

> But what about, say, a covert invasion of a remote ally under the pretext of peacekeeping? What about military support for a coup in a nearby ally?

The solution, as per Ken Waltz, is to promote the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Your remote ally should also have them!

> What about a gradual strangling of your trade and resource routes?

This would be generally considered an act of war (what the US did to Japan pre-WW2, actually; and Nixon considered an oil embargo from the Saudis equivalent to an act of war). The critical thing is to make it clear where you are drawing the lines.

> Are you EVER going to say "ok, THIS is the last straw, we're starting a nuclear war NOW because you blocked all roads to Berlin"?

The United States should not start any kind of war over what happens in Berlin. But German people themselves should certainly have nuclear deterrence.

> It's like wearing a suicide vest for personal defence.

It is a lot more like carrying a gun for personal defence. In human societies we have the rule of law to defend us, but in international relations it's still 'might makes right', and being willing to kill is a key part of that. Now, if you are a mugger, would you be more willing to attack someone who is willing to use a gun and has no other alternative, or to attack someone who is very reluctant to use a gun and will give up their wallet if pressed? Exactly.

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#22
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always considered that if you believe nuclear deterrence is effective, it would be logical to disband the entire conventional military, and keep the nuclear weapons. The advantage would be you save an enormous amount of money, and vastly reduce the size of government. Politicians will stop being tempted to invade and interfere in other countries, and grievances against your country are reduced or eliminated. The lo…

> disband the entire conventional military, and keep the nuclear weapons. Then a country with conventional army and nukes would be able to attack you without using nukes and threat nuclear retaliation if you use nukes. It's rational to choose occupation over nuclear apocalypse, so you surrender (or he expects you to).

Why would any country attack you if you make it clear that an attack will result in them being annihilated? Politicians start wars when they believe the risk is worth it; they are much less likely to order troops to invade if they think it will result in them, personally, being vaporized in 15 minutes.

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#23
The football, the biscuit and the verification from secretary of defense are needed to confirm the authenticity of the authority. Secretary of defense doesn’t have veto power but he can use his judgment and refuse. Might lose his job though.

The authorization codes are used to demonstrate down the chain of command that the use of nuclear weapons has been authorized. Even after that the judgment is distributed to individuals. The president has only the authorization codes. Actual launch codes are in the hands of STRATCOM. There are generals who can refuse a direct order.

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#24
As a European, I am always nervous about nukes. American nukes specifically. And not so much about Trump, who is a buffoon but doesn't actually want to get too involved in messy foreign politics, but Clinton, who as a Secretary of State has already proven to be another warmonger.

The US has had a blasé attitude to nuclear weapons ever since the start of the Cold War. The majority of situations where we have come close to global thermonuclear war involved careless US behaviour. The US is the only nation in the history of mankind to have used nuclear weapons at all.

If there will ever be a nuclear war, the US is the most likely country to make it happen. Sure, some deranged dictator might fling a single nuclear missile somewhere at some point (and it will probably be intercepted before it can do any real damage) but if I had to bet on a country to end the world as we know it, all my money would be on the US.

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#26
post #25

How much of this is accurate and up to date? I'm extremely skeptical when details like this appear in newspapers.

I hope the question is rhetorical, since if the information is indeed deliberately hidden and only false stories are made public, the few who know the real story are unlikely to post about it here on HN. So whoever answers the question either doesn't know anything or is trying to mislead you (further) :)

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#27
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always considered that if you believe nuclear deterrence is effective, it would be logical to disband the entire conventional military, and keep the nuclear weapons. The advantage would be you save an enormous amount of money, and vastly reduce the size of government. Politicians will stop being tempted to invade and interfere in other countries, and grievances against your country are reduced or eliminated. The lo…

Your logic assumes the military is only required for defensive purposes, which is not the case.

That's the point - remove temptation from your own politicians. That is for those who believe in a "military is for defense" doctrine. Myself, I'm not so sure the evidence for interventions abroad would support an offensive military - narrow interest groups who clearly have benefited a lot excepted.

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#28
The security of nuclear weapons may be less tight than one may think. Hare are some classics:

British nukes were protected by bike locks - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7097101.stm

Launch code for US nukes was 00000000 for 20 years - http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/12/launch-code-for-u...

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#29
post #28

The security of nuclear weapons may be less tight than one may think. Hare are some classics: British nukes were protected by bike locks - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7097101.stm Launch code for US nukes was 00000000 for 20 years - http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/12/launch-code-for-u...

[deleted]

Re: Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button

#30
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> disband the entire conventional military, and keep the nuclear weapons. Then a country with conventional army and nukes would be able to attack you without using nukes and threat nuclear retaliation if you use nukes. It's rational to choose occupation over nuclear apocalypse, so you surrender (or he expects you to).

Why would any country attack you if you make it clear that an attack will result in them being annihilated? Politicians start wars when they believe the risk is worth it; they are much less likely to order troops to invade if they think it will result in them, personally, being vaporized in 15 minutes.

Because they don't believe you'll actually do it over some small matter (say, a proxy takeover in a minor ally power), so they call your bluff.

It makes it easy to chip away at your defenses, where every bite is so small that it would be insane to respond with a nuclear attack.

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