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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

nytimes.com

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#761

Post by usaar333 »

ryandrake wrote: post #735
usaar333 wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all in the greater thread's context of whether you are more likely to get rich working for someone else or yourself. Sure, only the top engineers get paid $300k+/year, but an even smaller number of founders are able to pull that sort of effective salary. I'd wager that these days a smart engineer is financially better off at a big co than even starting a startup. For more specifics, large, prestigious compani…

> This is is all in the greater thread's context of whether you are more likely to get rich working for someone else or yourself. The point I'm trying to make is that both likelihoods are very small. Maybe you have a 1 in 1000 shot at becoming a multi-millionaire by working at BigCo vs. a 1 in 2000 shot at a startup. Some people are claiming that Google, Facebook, etc. are simply pumping out millionaire after million…

Fair point, though I do believe it is reasonably common for a new grad that starts at FB, Google, etc. to have saved a million within 13 years. (An individual making $200k/year can readily save $80k/year)

> My guess is most of what's self-reported as yearly equity is really just signing bonus equity that vests after 4 years and then you're back to making base salary.

Generally, I think people would be reporting what they are going to make this year. (e.g. #shares vesting this year * value).

Companies continually issue refresher equity as time goes on. At year 2, you'd be expected to be vesting significantly more equity than you did at your start date (especially if you have been promoted)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#762

Post by VladKovac »

linkregister wrote: post #649
VladKovac wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It was really intrusive Imagine how painful it is to be an entrepreneur with a very weak signal about how much you can pay people to remain happy to work with you without going broke and still retaining good enough talent.

Startups typically pay less in exchange for equity. This is expected and transparent. Large and medium size businesses have much more information available to them than their applicants do.

So the way to counteract information asymmetry (if we assume it exists) is to artificially enforce less information on the employers? That can't possibly be the right answer unless there's some systematic bias that leads to worse economic outcomes when employers happen to know a candidate's past income.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#763

Post by pluma »

drdeadringer wrote: post #746
pluma wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes perfect sense. If an applicant doesn't want to disclose their previous salary and disclosing it is the cultural norm, that indicates a) they're troublemakers (very privacy conscious or what have you), or b) their previous salary was very low. You probably don't want troublemakers so there's no point in making them a generous offer. And if the previous salary was very low the lowest possible offer is probably…

How//Why is being privacy-conscious troublemaking?

I'm not sure you're aware I'm speaking from the hypothetical position of the kind of company that would penalise candidates for not disclosing their previous salary.

From that perspective it should be obvious: if you're a privacy-minded individual, you'll be a bigger hassle to deal with than someone who's blissfully oblivious to privacy concerns. You might call out technically illegal practices others might be willing to put up with, for example.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#764

Post by pluma »

rev_bird wrote: post #738
pluma wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes perfect sense. If an applicant doesn't want to disclose their previous salary and disclosing it is the cultural norm, that indicates a) they're troublemakers (very privacy conscious or what have you), or b) their previous salary was very low. You probably don't want troublemakers so there's no point in making them a generous offer. And if the previous salary was very low the lowest possible offer is probably…

That's interesting, I hadn't considered it that way. I was looking at it as, "We want this person to work here because they passed our tests, now we wreck the deal for no reason." You're saying the salary disclosure is just one of the tests . Makes sense.

If it's penalised, I'd say it's likely a "test" (or more of a checkmark). But I wouldn't go so far as to say every employer that asks for your previous salary is testing you.

That said, even if you disclose your previous salary that could affect how you are perceived:

* disclosing it at all without hesitation might mark you as either very open (positive) or untrustworthy (negative)

* if the salary is much lower than expected it might indicate you're not as good as you claim (negative) or that you're bad at negotiating (positive?) or that you left because you wanted a bigger salary (negative)

* if the salary is much higher than expected it might indicate you'll make unreasonable demands (negative) or that you're a strong negotiator (negative?) or that you are underselling yourself (positive?)

Again, it entirely depends on the employer and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#765

Post by ghshephard »

baakss wrote: post #740
ghshephard wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now we're talking about heroic icons. There are thousands, or maybe 10s of thousands of 100x developers. There is only one Florence Nightingale, Steve Jobs, Donald Knuth, Michelangelo, Einstein, etc...

You don't need to be a heroic icon to be more valuable than a 100x developer. The 100x teacher who molds the mind of the kid/teenager/adult who eventually cures cancer is worth more than just about any single 100x developer out there right now, and you'll never know that person's name. (Yeah, I'm aware there will be multiple different cures for different cancers, the point remains)

It would be interesting to see if any great researcher could tie back their success to a teacher. My suspicion (based on nothing more than gut feeling) is that while a good/great teacher has some impact, that beyond a certain level it's 99.9% the individual and their environment/peers/parents/contacts, rather than any particular teacher.

Another way of saying this from a mercenary monetary point of view is that I don't think investing more than $250K/year on a K-12 teacher makes sense, though you might be able to make an argument that people who teach teachers might have greater leverage.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#766

Post by eru »

cloudjacker wrote: post #719
eru wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why collectively? Did the finance people need anything collective?

Not sure how to answer that It's routine to get bonuses larger than your annual salary in finance, specially in investment banking roles, this is not routine in software engineering

Only the total compensation is important for me. If anything, I'd rather get a stable one than a variable one. (Variable is only better, if the expected value is higher.)

In any case, in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12212180 you said something like

- finance people used to get normal amounts of money, now they get more - hence, software people need to do something as a collective.

I don't see how the first implies the second. Especially since the finance people didn't do anything as a collective, did they?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#768

Post by romanovcode »

brianwawok wrote: post #401
Artlav wrote: post #328

How common is this question? Over here in Russia asking how much you make is often considered a taboo, or a bad tone. I've never been or heard about this being asked at the interviews.

In the us between 98 and 99% of interviews. Salary is very taboo w friends and family. But when interviewing it nearly always comes up.

Not sure about friends and family. In Europe AFAIK it's not taboo at all and people are completely normal and open about it.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#769

Post by emodendroket »

tn13 wrote: post #749
emodendroket wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who the hell asks for those things in an interview? Considering how much salary negotiation advice talks about how revealing your current salary puts you at a disadvantage this doesn't seem like an awful thing to try.

Why do you think only employees deserve the protection from the law and not employers ? All they are asking for some information to make an informed decision.

Employers enjoy far more power in this relationship and thus need less protection. The idea that employers receive no protection from the law is bogus.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#770

Post by ionised »

josh_fyi wrote: post #618

If asked, say "My previous contract prohibits sharing compensation details [as it probably does], and I take my commitments very seriously."

Is that actually a thing that can exist in employment contracts?

Because it would be a great way to shut down anyone asking about your salary.

If it's not then they're going know you're just trying to avoid answering the question.

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