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Florida cut $100M from its mental hospitals – chaos followed

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Re: Florida cut $100M from its mental hospitals – chaos followed

#91
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice to know what that bias might be. For example, "bias towards truth" is different than "bias towards restoring the US to British monarchy." Mother Jones is of course a politically progressive magazine, so there's a bias in the topics they cover. But that sort of bias says nothing about the quality of the coverage. The Economist is also 'incredibly biased' in what it cover, and they do good job of it as…

I have never, ever, seen Mother Jones do "an investigation into things that people on the left or the Democrats wish we wouldn't." Maybe there was a time that they were more extremist than the Democrats, and that's what they are referring to. They are basically Fox News, but on the left. Both Fox and MJ make you less informed than before because they leave out facts and stories that don't fit their preconceived viewp…

I am confused by your positioning Mother Jones as no more extremist than the Democrats while also saying "They are basically Fox News, but on the left".

I can't tell from that if you mean that the Democratic party is an extremist party, or if you mean that that Fox News is as moderate towards the right as the Democrats are towards the left, or both.

I thought 'Democracy Now' was more like the left-extreme version of right-extreme Fox News, only much less influential. In any cases, shouldn't your comparison be more to one of the conservative print sources? Is Mother Jones more like the National Review or The American Conservative for the left?

From what you wrote, it's hard for me to tell if your statement that the Mother Jones writing "gives you a distorted picture" is because you also have a distorted partisan view.

About the only times I read an article from Mother Jones is when it was submitted here on HN, which occurs a few times each week according to an HN search.

I looked now at several of their investigation pieces, at http://www.motherjones.com/topics/investigations?page=1 , I do not get the same feeling of being "less informed" that you described. To the contrary, pieces like "They Had Created This Remarkable System for Taking Every Last Dime From Their Customers" and "The World Bank Is Supposed to Help the Poor. So Why Is it Bankrolling Oligarchs?" seem like informative, well-written pieces that I would expect from those reputable sources you mentioned. They also link to primary resources, including SEC filings and court documents. That's not something I see from Fox News reports.

The web site lists only a small number of investigations, I can't find an investigation that the Democrats wish hadn't been reported. I instead looked for other long-form pieces.

Five years ago they ran "Why the Democratic Party Has Abandoned the Middle Class in Favor of the Rich", http://www.alternet.org/story/151108/why_the_democratic_part... (first appeared in Mother Jones, but doesn't appear to be online) and "Why Screwing Unions Screws the Entire Middle Class" at http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequalit... , which contains among other things the line "The Democratic Party has largely abandoned the working class".

The author of those piece is Keven Drum, who has continued with more recent articles like "Democrats Have Done Virtually Nothing for the Middle Class in 30 Years".

These do not appear to be something the Democratic Party would wish published.

My examination is only cursory, so while I don't see how you reached your conclusion, you have the longer experience with Mother Jones to be a better judge.

Re: Florida cut $100M from its mental hospitals – chaos followed

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but sometimes there is no money to spend, and that's my point...it is purely a budget issue not a political one. When your State budget goes from say $70B down to $60B (including a stimulus package from the federal government) and the state is already $200B in debt where does the money come from? Had the republican (turned independent, turned democrat) governor Crist known saving $5.5M would cost $5.5B he wou…

Where do you get that money? I bet you could shake $100M out of the prison system if you looked for cases of people being locked up for ridiculously trivial offenses. Given how prisoners often cost $40-60K per year, wouldn't take that many. I don't expect people to be psychic, but common sense must apply here. When you "save money" by slashing budgets on road repairs, and ten years later your roads are so awful you h…

>I bet you could shake $100M out of the prison system if you looked for cases of people being locked up for ridiculously trivial offenses.

Well FL already has programs in place releasing felons to free up funds, so whats a few more felons...although talking about looking at saving money now vs not seeming to care about what happens tomorrow, about 10% of those released early will commit new crimes during the period they should have still been incarcerated.

>The so-called fiscal conservatives are always looking at saving money now, they don't seem to care about what happens tomorrow.

Perhaps they are cutting their nose off despite their face as you suggest due to some warped politically ideology, but they say the same thing about the other side. Looking at the most fiscally healthy states, they are all red states. In fact what makes the most fiscally unhealthy states what they are is not that they are blue, but that they are taking on obligations (usually pension and healthcare) today that will make them insolvent tomorrow. I am aware the common response is sure they don't have the money to pay the obligations but the revenue will come in the future, but history shows that debt simply continues to climb resulting in more and more tough budget cuts...until bankruptcy and while we haven't had one at the State level yet, there are 51 municipalities/cities who have filed (both red and blue, but by far the largest bankruptcies were blue).

Still I maintain it does no good looking at these things as left/right, because they are budget decisions and both ideologies fail and both succeed fiscally. Unfortunately politics gets people taking a side and acting irrationally when confronting facts, say for example how fiscal conservatives hammer Obama for doubling the debt and yet they praise Reagan (who tripled the debt). Or when you get Trump saying Obama is soft on immigration when there have been more deportations during his administration than any other.

Re: Florida cut $100M from its mental hospitals – chaos followed

#93
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sit around a table voting on stuff to add to the DSM... You sit with them for like 10 minutes and "Oh you're bipolar." No MRI or blood test... The same people who said being gay was a mental illness. So why trust a industry promoting hate and still promoting ADHD which was admitted as being a work of fiction. There's a group called Citizens Commission on Human Rights that made documentaries on the subject which…

The CCHR is a Scientology shill group, and is about as full of shit as 10 pounds of manure stuffed in a 5 pound bag. So yeah, all those videos you watched are done by the same people who believe that your problems are caused by Xenu and blown up aliens.

The CCHR has to be considered in context. Robert Whitaker's book, Anatomy of an Epidemic [1], makes the case that Scientologists were used by the drug companies to deflect criticism of the mass use of ineffective drugs:

  THE CRITICS BELIEVE IN ALIENS

  The story of a "psychopharmacology revolution" had first been
  told in the 1950s and 1960s, and then, as we've seen in this chapter,
  it was revived in the 1980s. However, the storytellers in the 1980s
  were more vulnerable to criticism than the storytellers of the earlier
  decades simply because there was now twenty years of research that
  undermined their narative. None of the drugs had proven to help 
  people function well over the long term, and the chemical-
  imbalance theory of mental disorders was in the process of flaming
  out. As NIMH researchers had concluded in 1984, "elevations or
  decrements in the functioning of serotonergic systems per se are not
  likely to be associated with depression." ... There was a Grand 
  Canyon-sized gap between what the broken-brain storytellers
  were intimating was true and what was actually known, and that 
  same gap would appear in their stories when Prozac and the other 
  second-generation drugs came to market.  But fortunately for the 
  proponents of biological psychiatry, criticism of the medical model 
  and of psychiatric drugs became associated, in the public mind, 
  with Scientology.
  ...
  ... In 1969, Scientology and Thomas Szasz cofounded the Citizens 
  Commission on Human Rights, and this group began waging 
  campaigns against lobotomy, electroshock, and psychiatric drugs. 
  
  This proved to be very fortuitous for the APA [American Psychiatric 
  Association] and its storytelling partners as they raised the flag of 
  biological psychiatry. Indeed, it is easy to imagine the drug 
  companies deciding to secretly fund Scientology's protests, eager 
  as they were to shove money to any organization that would -- 
  wittingly or unwittingly -- advance their cause. For not only did 
  Scientologist believe in extraterrestrials, they also had gained a 
  reputation for being a secretive, litigious, and even malevolent 
  cult. Scientology, Time wrote in 1991, is a "hugely profitable 
  global racket that survives by intimidating members and critics 
  in a Mafia-like manner."  Thanks to Scientology, the powers that 
  be in psychiatry had the perfect storytelling foil, for they could 
  now publicly dismiss criticism of the medical model and 
  psychiatric drugs with a wave of the hand, deriding it as 
  nonsense that arose from people who were members of a 
  deeply unpopular cult, rather than criticism that arose from 
  their own research. As such, the presence of Scientology in the 
  storytelling mix served to taint all criticism of the medical model 
  and psychiatric drugs, no matter what its source. 
  
  Those were the storytelling forces that formed in the 1980s. 
  When Prozac arrived on the market, they were lined up perfectly 
  for the creation -- and maintenance -- of a tale about psychiatry's 
  great new leap. 
  
  -pg 280-282

Chapter 14, on the next page, opens with this quote: "When it comes to dead bodies in current psychotropic trials, there are a greater number of them in the active treatment groups than in the placebo groups. This is quite different from what happens in penicillin trials or trials of drugs that really work." -David Healy, Professor of Psychiatry at Cardiff University, Wales (2008)

[1] http://www.madinamerica.com/product/62043/

I highly recommended this book for anyone who might ever have to defend themselves or someone their care about against a conventional psychiatrist.

Re: Florida cut $100M from its mental hospitals – chaos followed

#95

The real issue is a legal, not financial one. The ACLU fought a long time ago to make it very hard to commit anyone, very hard to give them treatment while committed, very hard to keep them there, etc. No matter how much city/states spend, they can't fill up the hospitals and treat patients, which is why most of the hospitals were closed. If you are interested, there's a very thorough book on the subject that I'd rec…

This conclusion does cut both ways. It should be acknowledged that treatment at mental institutions then was horrific. Current treatment is not much better.

Re: Florida cut $100M from its mental hospitals – chaos followed

#96

I was about to wonder aloud why there can't be more private, for-profit mental health facilities instead of private prisons, as huge swathes of the incarcerated population are very mentally unwell and probably do need to be in custody but would likely benefit tremendously from a less oppressive setting. Surely there could be some profit to be extracted by privatization there. Then I realized it's because they couldn'…

There are private mental hospitals. They're the ones that are merely pretty bad places to be, but that look nice enough and seem like they'd be tolerable for a short length of time. Most public mental hospitals are terrible places; if I was going to spend a significant portion of my life in such places and knew it that'd be enough to make me depressed all by itself. There are lots of people in prison who would be bet…

> (b) Lots of psychiatric drugs are hideous. The side effect profiles of anti-psychotics are such that being schizophrenic can look fine.

The ironic thing about "anti-psychotics" is that they worsen the conditions they supposedly treat. [1]

[1] "Drug-induced supersensitivity psychosis revisited: characteristics of relapse in treatment-compliant patients" - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3736929/

Re: Florida cut $100M from its mental hospitals – chaos followed

#97
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you believe that adding up all election and/or legislation-influencing activities would reveal that CCPOA is the largest actor in California politics, despite the fact that even in above-board registered lobbying the oil industry spent $22 million last year? I think your claim requires some substantiation.

>CCPOA is the largest actor in California politics it isn't exactly full order, so you kind of right in questioning my statements at their absolute face value. It is more like partial order here - oil industry and the guards have orthogonal interests. Except for the one aspect - guards consume state budget while oil industry is a source of it. And as we know from the business community whining - CA is considered "not…

That's a bizarre interpretation of events. Schwarzenegger went along with the prison industry by vigorously opposing Prop. 66 (reforming the three strikes rule) and generally taking a "tough on crime" stance. Prison population increased every year under his administration until a court (and eventually the US Supreme Court) finally ordered the state to reduce it. Schwarzenegger's solution to overcrowding was to ship inmates to other states, which is shock doctrine privatization, not union busting.

Brown has actually reduced the prison population, notably by reforming sentencing laws and reclassifying many crimes as misdemeanors. The California prison population now stands at a level lower than in 1996, and a per-capita level lower than in 1992.

Re: Florida cut $100M from its mental hospitals – chaos followed

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but sometimes there is no money to spend, and that's my point...it is purely a budget issue not a political one. When your State budget goes from say $70B down to $60B (including a stimulus package from the federal government) and the state is already $200B in debt where does the money come from? Had the republican (turned independent, turned democrat) governor Crist known saving $5.5M would cost $5.5B he wou…

Where do you get that money? I bet you could shake $100M out of the prison system if you looked for cases of people being locked up for ridiculously trivial offenses. Given how prisoners often cost $40-60K per year, wouldn't take that many. I don't expect people to be psychic, but common sense must apply here. When you "save money" by slashing budgets on road repairs, and ten years later your roads are so awful you h…

Florida has somewhat of a...reputation...for the caliber of its criminals.

Re: Florida cut $100M from its mental hospitals – chaos followed

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a Canadian and don't have a family doctor and am unclear on the benefits of having one. When I had one years ago I didn't feel like I was getting any extra special attention beyond what I get now by walking into a walk-in clinic and seeing any random doctor. Perhaps the benefits are clearer if you have ongoing medical issues? Or perhaps my old family doctor wasn't doing things a family doctor is supposed to do i…

I'm an American with kickass insurance who doesn't have a "family doctor". I go to a local practice that has 5 or so doctors and a couple of CNP's. I don't always see the same person, but I see someone within 2 or 3 days for routine stuff and same day for urgent stuff. I think that the moderate trade off between "personalization" and availability is totally worth it, especially since it saves me money (my insurance i…

For another data point, I live in Australia and can see a doctor, same day or night, for around 20 USD. It is very convenient and I am glad that part of the system runs well enough.

There can be waiting lists for public surgeons however, and private health insurance can help solve that to an extent.

I think we have a good balance here but I am not familiar enough with the nuances of health care to know.

Re: Florida cut $100M from its mental hospitals – chaos followed

#100
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question was what is the total cost of Florida's mental hospitals and if that is worth it. Assuming that $100M cut was a 10% cut it means that the total expenditure could be $1B. Which looks ridiculously high for merely 20M population of Florida. Of course there is a whole point of whether government ought to spend some money now to avoid spending on basic services later whether there are proper studies done and i…

Florida's GDP is $748B. Suppose 1 in 300 people in the state are mentally ill enough at a given time to warrant living in a mental hospital. If that costs $1B, about half as much of the economy would be spent on them (per capita), compared to the general population. Seems very reasonable to me, without any more specific numbers to go on. To throw out another number for comparison, medicare and medicaid together cost…

Assuming your numbers government spends $15k for every 1 of those 300 people. That number seems pretty high.

The Tampa Bay investigation's violence refers to violence in the hospitals itself and not the general violence in society. For 13.5K per year you might reduce the hospital staff by 10% but that is unlikely to result into chaos that the report seems to suggest.

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