Fentanyl, a stealth killer • Hacker News Board

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#141

Post by bduerst » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 8:58 AM UTC

wutbrodo wrote: post #100

bduerst wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me if this is wrong, but are you really arguing for the over-the-counter sale of chemically addicting drugs, premised on the actions of junkies? Won't that just create more junkies? Alcohol is chemically addictive, sold over the counter, and is currently the fourth leading cause of preventable death in the U.S.

> Alcohol is chemically addictive, sold over the counter, and is currently the fourth leading cause of preventable death in the U.S. The point isn't that legalizing a drug makes it completely harmless to everyone in society, it's that legalizing may mitigate _some_ harms that are caused by the specific circumstance of being illegal. The obvious example is something like marijuana, where we had to manufacture scary bu…

Marijuana isn't chemically addicting. Opiates are, which is what is being discussed.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#142

Post by lostlogin » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 9:46 AM UTC

tigershark wrote: post #131

opiatethrowaway wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're completely off base here. Many times more people die of alcohol than heroin and prescription analogs put together. Also, there are tons of people who use opiates responsibly and in moderation--I'm one of them. Finally, lose the anger, it's a symptom of alcoholism ;)

No one ever died for drinking a glass of wine a day. Heroin users can't use it moderately by definition. Enjoy your addiction, but don't try to lie to the world saying that opiates are innocuous just to feel better with your conscience. ;)

A glass of wine a day is actually a pattern that experts suggest avoiding. http://www.ias.org.uk/Alcohol-knowledge-centre/Consumption/F...

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#143

Post by lostlogin » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 9:51 AM UTC

tigershark wrote: post #113

MichaelGG wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opiates are not anywhere nearly as harmful as alcohol. Apart from overdosing, there's very little side effect, generally. (Some people don't tolerate them well.) The health issues that junkies have is usually due to poor hygiene - many places don't even let them buy needles! The legal aspects cause all of this. They raise prices, make supply hard, encourage fraud, discourage help, increase the terrible social stigma.…

This is probably the biggest lie that I ever heard in my life. Go on and take your opiates if makes you happy, but don't try to deny reality. Alcohol is assumed every day by billions people in the world and it has absolutely no harmful effects if taken moderately. Actually there are several studies about the healthy effect of one glass of wine a day. A junkie instead cannot take his sh.t with moderation and will suff…

The benefits of alcohol drinking are very hard to separate from other factors that also differ between drinkers and non drinkers. There may be benefits but the data is hardly conclusive.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#144

Post by Aelinsaar » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 1:19 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #121

Aelinsaar wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, you seem very passionate about this topic, why is that?

I know a fair amount of people that have used, some that died. I've been robbed by a relative so he could sell my shit to buy drugs. Yet I strongly believe that people should be able to make their own decisions, that personal freedoms are worth the price of people deciding to use whatever medicine they want. In this thread there's a lot of blaming of a chemical. There's a lot of blaming people getting caught by laws.…

I appreciate the detailed answer, thanks.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#145

Post by Aelinsaar » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 4:40 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #127

Aelinsaar wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...People are shooting up Wildnil?!?!?! I assume they're mostly dying.

They probably are, and in part because of reassuring BS such as at the top of this thread. Just because something seems safe from a completely rational perspective or that of someone highly educated doesn't mean real people in less privileged circumstances won't suffer from it. Theory and practice are only the same in theory.

Incredible. I would be terrified to have an infusion of Wildnil unless I was actually in a medical setting, preferably with a crash cart and reversal drugs right on hand. I understand desperation though, and if people will cook their own desomorphine, I guess they will do ANYTHING.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#146

Post by mindslight » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 4:46 PM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #88

sremani wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I want to agree with you, the story of the two dudes losing their jobs and constantly being broke says otherwise. I know there are lot of functioning addicts, and I have seen them in life. But the two guys in the article are anything but functioning. Their education suffered, their job prospects suffered.

The issue of being broke is directly related to having to buy off a black market. Opiates are stupidly cheap - for a naive user, they are cheaper than Tylenol. A lot of the problem almost certainly stems from this broke/steal/intervention/etc. cycle. Do legally sanctioned opiate users suffer from a high rate of financial and employment issues?

To be fair, users that are sanctioned under the current legal regime are forced to keep up appearances, which likely includes holding down a job. If they do run into financial issues, their legal supply likely gets cut off when the prescriber sees them deteriorate. At which point they're no longer legally sanctioned.

(FWIW I do agree with your general viewpoint. Not because I have much of an interest in drugs, but because if somebody purports to tell you how and how not you can affect your own body, that person is an enemy of your freedom. Freedom necessarily must include the option to harm yourself, otherwise you are actually just picking from preordained choices.)

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#147

Post by onetwotree » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 5:11 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #96

hristov wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate to break it to you but your dealer does not give a fuck about your health. It is extremely difficult for the police to find the dealer of a dead person, and then very difficult to prove the elements needed for a murder charge. The police do not even try to find dealers of drug deaths, unless the victim is a celebrity. Furthermore, every heroin dealer knows that each of their clients is likely to go into a downwa…

Conversely, dealers that have customers who OD will go up in demand, because other addicts will seek them out for their "stronger" drugs.

True - although one often prefers the OD not be fatal.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#148

Post by onetwotree » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 5:16 PM UTC

chb wrote: post #80

onetwotree wrote: post #14

The mention of Fentanyl here is pure clickbait. Fentanyl is pretty well known amongst opiate addicts (and has been for a while). Everyone knows it's dangerous, including dealers, who like to avoid killing their customers and catching murder charges, believe it or not. Aside from that and a bit of gateway drug BS towards the beginning, this is a solid and somewhat moving, if long, account of the standard Heroin story,…

Couldn't agree more with the characterization of this article as sensationalist. Also, why post this to a forum such as Hacker News? If I wanted to read "news" of this nature, I'd go to Fox or Yahoo!

When the article is less sensationalist, HN often expresses an interest in stories about drug addiction.

I can see a couple of reasons for this.

First, there seems to be a prevailing view here is that the war on drugs is an abject failure.

Furthermore, I believe addiction gets attention here as a fascinating scientific puzzle, whose questions and answers are deeply involved with philosophical issues such as free will and the nature of desire.

This is probably why the article made it as far up as it did on HN.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#149

Post by onetwotree » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 5:23 PM UTC

hristov wrote: post #22

onetwotree wrote: post #14

The mention of Fentanyl here is pure clickbait. Fentanyl is pretty well known amongst opiate addicts (and has been for a while). Everyone knows it's dangerous, including dealers, who like to avoid killing their customers and catching murder charges, believe it or not. Aside from that and a bit of gateway drug BS towards the beginning, this is a solid and somewhat moving, if long, account of the standard Heroin story,…

Hate to break it to you but your dealer does not give a fuck about your health. It is extremely difficult for the police to find the dealer of a dead person, and then very difficult to prove the elements needed for a murder charge. The police do not even try to find dealers of drug deaths, unless the victim is a celebrity. Furthermore, every heroin dealer knows that each of their clients is likely to go into a downwa…

What's interesting about dealers (at least the very low level ones that addicts typically buy directly from) is that they're often selling dope to support their own habits or to get ahead in a world they see as being stacked against them.

Thus, many of these people are not ruthless sociopaths, and recognize on some level that what they're doing is wrong. Through a great deal of rationalization, they are often able to convince themselves that it's morally OK.

These people would prefer not to have to bring murder into line with their already quite dissonant mental schema.

This is my experience talking to current and former dealers, mostly as part of my work with recovering addicts - I've had dealers help me track down relapsed sponsees, for instance, with very little convincing.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#150

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 5:27 PM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #68

hristov wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate to break it to you but your dealer does not give a fuck about your health. It is extremely difficult for the police to find the dealer of a dead person, and then very difficult to prove the elements needed for a murder charge. The police do not even try to find dealers of drug deaths, unless the victim is a celebrity. Furthermore, every heroin dealer knows that each of their clients is likely to go into a downwa…

While it isn't yet the law everywhere in the US, it's not just celebrities whose dealers get charged with murder for supplying drugs that kill via overdose.[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/her-fiance-gave-her-...

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