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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#681
post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind my asking, if you "loved" two of the places you have worked why have you been through four employers in 4-1/2 years? I love my current employer, which is why I have stayed there 19 years.

The tech jobs I've worked have ended roughly thus: Company went under Short-term contract for specific task Department downsized Short-term contract for specific task Department downsized Short-term contract for specific task Short-term contract for specific task I have never quit a job since finishing school. I'd have loved to stay on at several of those places for the rest of my career, but that's not how most of t…

Even with quick promotions, you are much more likely to end up with a higher salary by moving jobs every 1.5-3 years. I'm 30 and the longest I've been at a job is 21 months. It's never been brought up as a negative and I've got plenty of experience across multiple business domains and companies.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've followed this advice in the past with mixed results. Some companies do a great job of either respecting this or not asking in the first place. When I interviewed at Uber (a little more than a year back), the recruiter was super persistent. I told them "I understand why you're interested, but it's my personal preference at the advice of personal mentors, not to disclose that information. If we both like each othe…

> we have a policy of always making the lowest possible offer to candidates who won't share their compensation information What does "lowest possible offer" even mean? Lowest wage that you can live off? Lowest wage that anybody else in the company makes? Lowest wage that you'll accept?

Positions (titles) have salary bands. If you're at the top, you typically need a promotion to get anything beyond a COLA.

They're saying that whatever your offered position is, you are at the bottom of the salary band as a matter of principle.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the fear is that you'll anchor it "lower" than they would have. Example if they are intending to pay 120, and you say "I'm hoping to make 110" they might just come down to 110. But I suppose if you start at your high range that might be in your favor. Some of us (myself included) just don't know what we're worth so it's hard to know how to start the deal...

Also if your problem is every time you look for a job people keep on wanting to throw more money at you than you could ask for with a straight face. Well then dang I wish I had that problem :) This problem is usually because people just set their starting price too low, or aren't firm enough on it. One tactic(I haven't used yet, but I'll try the next time I apply to a job) is ask the hiring manager how selective they…

Your citation needs a citation.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your argument is that it's okay that we've made it worse for the people who already had it the hardest because the rest of the more wealthy people in the country benefitted from it? Sorry, but that doesn't make it better. As for the rest of your post, my comment implied a context of the moral an legal framework currently in place in the US and most countries people would actually want to live in. But you're willin…

> So your argument is that it's okay that we've made it worse for the people who already had it the hardest because the rest of the more wealthy people in the country benefitted from it? Where did I write that? I included the excerpt from the article to demonstrate your intellectual dishonesty in selectively quoting a single sentence from an article that is positive about the effects of immigration. I did not make an…

I wasn't referring to philosophical existentialism. This is the definition of existential I was using, straight from google.com:

ex·is·ten·tial ˌeɡzəˈsten(t)SH(ə)l/ LOGIC (of a proposition) affirming or implying the existence of a thing.

Sure, okay, there's no absolute standard for fairness. So there's no point in discussing the article, because by what basis would you even discuss whether or not employers should be allowed to ask applicants for their previous income? By what basis should we determine whether we should have any labor laws? What is the absolute standard by which you determined that there should be a minimum wage, or what that minimum wage should be?

If we ignore the entire framework of the conversation and my original comment, then we're veering off into a place I don't find particularly interesting.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#685
post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And that's why every employee should spend some low amount of background effort constantly interviewing elsewhere. First, to get a feeler for what the rest of the market is doing. Second, to take a better offer if available. Third, even a committed lifer needs to keep the interviewing skills sharp, in case of layoffs or bankruptcy.

You do realize that it costs companies more to continually hire. If you add real value to a company, from my experience most non-global companies see and understand that. However, in many cases the engineer is mediocre in their job (regardless of actual skill) and still expects a company to increase their pay. In a generation of people that feel something is owed to them, unfortunately the mediocre engineer covers 80…

Yes, I do realize. If you keep interviewing, you'll get a sense of how much your talents are worth in the market. (And the mediocre engineer you talk about will see their real worth too.)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#686
post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does one follow from the other? I appreciate that grocers are selling me cheap goods, and that it took hard work to create and supply them. Yet, I don't want them to form a cartel.

"Whoa, whoa, whoa. I like to be nice enough to the Help so that I can pat myself on the back. But let's not get ahead of ourselves and let these people fight for higher wages, which might impact my costs!"

They can raise their asking price, or exit that particular labour market. I did something similar, and became an economic migrant.

Cartelization is not good for the economy, no matter who tries to pull it off.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#687
post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that they must have too many qualified engineers applying, and they need an arbitrary way to filter people out. I almost managed to write that with a straight face.

yahoo did this to me. Verifying employment is one thing (I guess...), but their background check thing wanted exact salaries too, and permission to ask HR at all my previous employers. Is this common? I've worked for small companies so haven't run into anything like this elsewhere. Except for one asshole that wanted to do a reference check two weeks after I started work (!!!) (he offered me a job at the end of the in…

> Verifying employment is one thing (I guess...)

Why are you reluctant about a company being able to verify that you worked where and when you said you did?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#688
post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't bring gender into this. You can't say highly technical fields are comparable to customer support. Do you think the receptionists in hospitals should earn the same as doctors?

Serious? There's more to customer support than picking up a phone. I've worked with some very intelligent customer support people who know the product as well as the engineers.

There's more to customer support than picking up a phone.

I agree. There is more to customer support than picking up a phone, and some people make it sound like supporting a customer is just reading from the manual.

There's also more to cleaning than mopping. You can employ your philosophy of cleanliness and make things perfectly ordered and spiffy-shiny.

Maybe one day the CEO might walk in and be impressed by your attention to detail, hire you as an intern, and so goes the rest of your success story.

But how much value is the janitor bringing to the company by doing a stellar job? How about customer support? Either hire a stellar engineer and mediocre customer support, or hire a mediocre engineer and stellar customer support. Which would you choose?

When we start talking about jobs, we tend to imagine, in our minds, the people working. Then when people throw out words like "software engineer brings more value to the world than customer support", we translate those words to "you are saying this customer support Jan I am imagining is more valuable than the software engineer Dan I am imagining?"

(Names Jan and Dan were chosen as such because I have seen more female customer support and male software engineers than their counterparts. If you think that is sexism, then you are inherently valuing the human worth of software engineers over that of customer support personnel.)

People's worth is not determined by how much value they bring to the world.

Digression aside, we tend to construct mental models emotionally and attempt to justify with logic.

That is why people include gender in this argument, even though gender has nothing to do with whether people bring value. Again, the software engineer Dan is not a more valuable person than customer support Jan. If you don't get this difference, read No More Mr. Nice Guy or The Way of the Superior Man. The titles are somewhat of a misnomer; I suppose women will gain just as much value from those books.

This is a total shot in the dark, but female engineers are probably paid less than male engineers because they bring less value to the company (read: people hiring) than their male counterparts. The reason why male trait is valued more in STEM is because there are more men in STEM already.

We tend to want to work with people who are similar to us. Thus to a male CEO, he probably prefers a male over female engineer, if they are equal in aptitude. This, of course, is not a right judgment call, but this is humans' default mode of thinking.

There are also job-specific preferred traits. If I were running a hospital, I would pay a male nurse less than a female nurse; female nurses, by their gender trait and societal preference of female nurses (both men and women prefer female nurses), female nurses inherently have more value.

A complex topic that is easily subject to emotional manipulation. But worth talking about.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this: employees are at a huge information disadvantage. However, I think a better (& admittedly more radical) solution to this problem would be to force employers to publicly post anonymized salaries by job title. That way prospective and current employees know exactly how much they ought to be paid. It makes salary negotiation almost trivial. Preventing employers from asking about previous salary does n…

How about we go one step further and make all salaries public information?

Because it's none of your business how much money I make.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, except what I generally tell a recruiter what I want for a job before an offer has even been made, and I usually work with multiple at once. It gives me some haggling power without being the one who has to haggle directly.

Sounds like you are already your own "agent" as it were. The rest of us just don't know how to haggle, sadly :|

It's no different than buying a car.
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