Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay • Hacker News Board

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#631

Post by avindroth » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 7:41 AM UTC

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

This world rewards people for the value they bring (supply vs. demand). The world you propose seems to reward people for the value they think they are bringing.

Let me clarify.

The world does not reward those who work the hardest. More pain /= more value. The people working might feel like they are bringing more value; a construction worker probably does more "work" than a white-collar executive. The worker may even be more stressed, physically and mentally.

But does that mean he is bringing more value? Unlikely. This is because how effective you are has no correlation with how hard you work.

I could dig holes all day, and I would be "working hard," but at the end of the day, I haven't done shit.

Saying "I am getting underpaid" is admitting "I made a wrong strategic choice." Don't complain about the state of the world, but instead compose the right strategy moving forward according to the state of the world.

The Dough of Idealism must go through the Sieve of Reality to create a product that realizes the idealism for as many individuals as possible. Have just the former, you are a lone idealist. Have just the latter, you are a lame realist. Idealism and Reality are both necessary to bring the most value to the world.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#632

Post by barnacs » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 7:45 AM UTC

It pains me to see that people can't apply common sense without law anymore.

If a potential employer asks about my previous salary, I refuse to answer. Similarly, it never even occured to me to hide my salary from my coworkers regardless of what my employer asked me to do.

Needless to say, if any employer has a problem with that, I definitely don't want to spend 8+ hours of my day with them.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#633

Post by afandian » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 7:51 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #623

erikpukinskis wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the monetary difference between an average road and a really great road is not nearly as much as the difference between an average system and a really great system. Pick another profession then. How about customer support? The difference between an average support person and a really great one can be millions of dollars of revenue. But they are paid peanuts because it's women's work, not like the manly engineering…

Don't bring gender into this. You can't say highly technical fields are comparable to customer support. Do you think the receptionists in hospitals should earn the same as doctors?

Serious? There's more to customer support than picking up a phone. I've worked with some very intelligent customer support people who know the product as well as the engineers.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#634

Post by avindroth » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 7:52 AM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #617

mark-r wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supply/demand. There's a much larger supply of people capable of building roads vs. those capable of developing a system. And the monetary difference between an average road and a really great road is not nearly as much as the difference between an average system and a really great system. You're right about the value of teams being greater than an individual contributor, but the ability to work within a team is a va…

> the monetary difference between an average road and a really great road is not nearly as much as the difference between an average system and a really great system. Pick another profession then. How about customer support? The difference between an average support person and a really great one can be millions of dollars of revenue. But they are paid peanuts because it's women's work, not like the manly engineering…

The difference between an average and a great customer support is not millions of dollars in revenue. You are thinking about the difference between a terrible and a great customer, and with 1 in a million scenario.

There are some situations where great customer support brings the company tremendous value and opportunity. But these situations are so rare and few that investing in great customer support (for high price) is not worthwhile. An average person should do.

If good customer support is really bringing in value, then they should be able to negotiate for more pay. If they leave, the company should see losses.

But that never happens.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#635

Post by gozur88 » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 7:59 AM UTC

st3v3r wrote: post #573

gozur88 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? You think people should risk their money without compensation? Where can I find such people? And what makes showing up at the office and typing on a keyboard such a holy use of time that it alone deserves compensation?

I do not believe that you shouldn't get any compensation, but the idea that simply having money entitles you to the lion's share of the compensation, above and beyond those that actually do the damn work, is idiotic. "And what makes showing up at the office and typing on a keyboard such a holy use of time that it alone deserves compensation?" The fact that it actually makes the damn product.

... so does the money. There's no keyboard typing without the money.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#636

Post by tracker1 » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 8:03 AM UTC

zenlikethat wrote: post #40

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

In order for this to happen programmers have to: (1) Stop shaming each other for being "greedy" when they actually ask for what they merit. I can't tell you how many times on HN and elsewhere I've run into extremely defeatist attitude about this implying that we should be happy just to have jobs in the field. As long as these folks are around shaming fellow engineers for asking for more money they will drag everyone…

It helps to try to price yourself out of 2/3-3/4 of the cold approaches you get from recruiters. If you want to make more, ask for it. If you're in a position, even if you don't like it, there's no harm to keeping your options open, or asking for 5-10% more than you are currently making. You might be surprised. Also, if you outright ask what the pay range is, more often than not, they'll tell you. That gives you some indicator of what to ask for.

Also bearing in mind where you stand on the skills ladder as part of that factoring.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#637

Post by randomThoughts9 » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 8:04 AM UTC

markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

I'm replying here but I'm trying to reply to the entire thread.

- So you are talking about how much value we create and that we should receive more of it.

- Then someone else mentions a lot of other professions that do that too: create a lot of value.

- Now the discussion does a 180, forgetting completely the first topic: value. Now it's about supply and demand.

Pick your measuring stick people.

You either trust that markets work best and then you are paid exactly what you deserve, because you are free to change jobs and ask for more.

Or you don't and think that a better system should be in place, but then it should apply to everybody, not just software developers, right?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#638

Post by eropple » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 8:06 AM UTC

st3v3r wrote: post #415

eropple wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you can just get your non-competes redlined. I did it at literally every job I worked at after my first out of college (and that non-compete was "travel companies", BFD).

I could, but why bother having to do that when I could just live in a place that doesn't recognize them to start with?

There are literally thousands of reasons to live anywhere, and it turns out that Massachusetts measures real well on a lot of them. If you base your living decisions on "there might in the nebulous future be an onerous non-compete I can't get an employer, who is trying to be appealing to me and in an industry as stupid-hot as tech is almost never the only game in town, to redline", I envy your few and trivial problems in life.

Hell, I've treated it as a filter in the past: the mindset that leads a company to be unyielding on noncompetes is a signal not to work for them in the first place. That a noncompete is unenforceable in some jurisdictions functionally only means, for the overwhelming majority of tech employees, you aren't finding out how much they think of you before you sign on the dotted line and quit your other job.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#639

Post by avindroth » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 8:06 AM UTC

briandear wrote: post #630

erikpukinskis wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the monetary difference between an average road and a really great road is not nearly as much as the difference between an average system and a really great system. Pick another profession then. How about customer support? The difference between an average support person and a really great one can be millions of dollars of revenue. But they are paid peanuts because it's women's work, not like the manly engineering…

I can train someone in less than a month to be a world class customer support agent. Assuming they have the temperament, the job requires no scarce skills. I can train a person to work on a crew pouring concrete in a day. Comparing road crews to software engineering is a false equivalence. Mining in Africa is certainly hard work, but I could staff a mine with eager workers in an hour. If one feels that income inequal…

Well said.

Supply vs. demand explains so much of this world. Some people either don't grok the concept, or refuse to believe it applies everywhere.

It hurts our emotions when we think about a miner in Africa (working 120 hour workweeks, wiping the sweat off his brow, with five mouths to feed) getting paid hundred times less than a software engineer fresh out of college working four hours a day, sitting in ergonomic chairs and getting in massage pods as a "break."

But pain is not value. Sorry. This is not a utopia. Don't make decisions thinking the world is a utopia. Have a correct mapping of the world, and then do something about it.

Don't skip the first step.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#640

Post by frankiejr » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 8:08 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #623

erikpukinskis wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the monetary difference between an average road and a really great road is not nearly as much as the difference between an average system and a really great system. Pick another profession then. How about customer support? The difference between an average support person and a really great one can be millions of dollars of revenue. But they are paid peanuts because it's women's work, not like the manly engineering…

Don't bring gender into this. You can't say highly technical fields are comparable to customer support. Do you think the receptionists in hospitals should earn the same as doctors?

> Don't bring gender into this.

Gender was already in this.

The article starts with "In a groundbreaking effort to close the wage gap between men and women..." I do see what you were getting at but my guess (based on karma and skimming previous comments) is that the gender comment was sarcastic. I could be wrong though.