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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

nytimes.com

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#581

Post by PhilWright »

ghshephard wrote: post #577
PhilWright wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing unique or special about being a programmer. Programmers think they are undervalued and should get more. But guess what, nurses think they should get more as well because they are saving lives. Soldiers think they should get more for making us all safe. Police think they should get more for reducing the level of crime in society which benefits us all. Teachers think they should get more because they a…

Couple points - I didn't say there is anything unique or special about being a programmer from a skill perspective. Almost everyone who can graduate from high school can be taught to program, and put together useful applications. I tried to call that out when describing the difference between a day-day CRUD developer and platform developer. But there is a distinct hierarchy of developers who can, for example, instinc…

I certainly agree that the spread in productivity between the best and mediocre seems to be huge in software development compared to most other industries. In fact, I cannot think of another one quite like it off the top of my head.

We do have certain other advantages though. We can create a start-up and potentially make a huge amount of money. This is a realistic possibility for a substantial percentage of good developers. Much fewer people from other industries have that kind of chance.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#582

Post by WalterBright »

> a group of female cafeteria workers who filed a lawsuit in 1991 seeking parity with male janitors, who did comparable work, the cafeteria workers said, but were paid significantly more.

You'd have to pay me more to do janitorial work than cafeteria work. Cleaning bathrooms is dangerous, dirty work.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#583

Post by Consultant32452 »

PhilWright wrote: post #571
ghshephard wrote: post #568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Major difference is trainable skills versus innate talent. The number of people who can be trained/educated to perform the tasks you described above are pretty large. The number of people who can write elegant, concise code is a pretty small pool. It's also important to distinguish between day-day coders who write CRUD apps (trainable skill), and developers who develop platforms that others build on. Another way of l…

There is nothing unique or special about being a programmer. Programmers think they are undervalued and should get more. But guess what, nurses think they should get more as well because they are saving lives. Soldiers think they should get more for making us all safe. Police think they should get more for reducing the level of crime in society which benefits us all. Teachers think they should get more because they a…

That's why labor policy is so important. The guy digging proverbial ditches does indeed deserve more, but the market has been distorted by large corporations who lobby for lax enforcement of immigration law. On the other end of the spectrum engineers and programmers probably deserve more but the market has been distorted by large corporations who have lobbied for massive numbers of H1Bs or colluded with each other to keep poaching/salaries down in the valley.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#584

Post by praveer13 »

eggy wrote: post #578
PostOnce wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the linesmen who provide the power for your computers? What about the road workers who make it possible for you to get to work? What about the African miners who dig up the rare earths for your components to run your computer? What about the guys soldering all this crap together? I bet you'd say the road worker creates hardly any value, but in reality the economy just ceases to function without roads. Or s…

Try building a road system with just road workers, and no civil engineers or systems and operations analysts, and all this entails. Or pay the house painter what you pay a software engineer, and see how many people paint their house themselves, or with less frequency. House painters would be priced out of the market, and more homeowners would fall, and/or have crappier paint jobs. That is supply and demand in a nutsh…

Won't the same argument for supply and demand work in this case too? (Engineer salaries)

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#585

Post by intrasight »

Tideflat wrote: post #487
intrasight wrote: post #261

Are you a star? If not, then you have very little leverage in negotiating compensation. That is true across professions: Rock Star, Sports Star, Sales Star, Surgical Star, you name it. Next ask if stars are made or born. If born, then you're out of luck again - until you are reincarnate. If made, then learn from how others made themselves stars. Like many things in life, it helps to start young, and it often comes do…

Not all markets are superstar markets. Some places the 100th best worker is about just as good as the best worker, like for janitors.

First, I beg to differ your "like for janitors" statement. In almost every profession there is a large difference between the top performers and the average. But your statement "Not all markets are superstar markets" is exactly the point of my post - engineering is not a superstar market, and hence engineers will never have much compensation leverage.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#586

Post by reitanqild »

praveer13 wrote: post #584
eggy wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try building a road system with just road workers, and no civil engineers or systems and operations analysts, and all this entails. Or pay the house painter what you pay a software engineer, and see how many people paint their house themselves, or with less frequency. House painters would be priced out of the market, and more homeowners would fall, and/or have crappier paint jobs. That is supply and demand in a nutsh…

Won't the same argument for supply and demand work in this case too? (Engineer salaries)

Less people are ready to fill the engineer positions.

Or rather: less people are qualified to fill engineer positions.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#587

Post by [deleted] »

tastynacho wrote: post #278
jxramos wrote: post #248

Does this sort of information get revealed in background checks for previous places of employment or is that a privacy thing? Also is it really necessary for a state to dictate such things? Is it too much pressure for someone to respectfully decline to answer such a question and practice some negotiation skills? What exactly is the state's interest in this sort of thing precisely?

No it doesn't come back in a background check. The only thing that comes back is your title and employment dates. That is actually how I've avoided all those annoying salary negotiations. Lie about how much I make, let them offer me slightly above that and gladly accept.

[deleted]

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#588

Post by twblalock »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #583
PhilWright wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing unique or special about being a programmer. Programmers think they are undervalued and should get more. But guess what, nurses think they should get more as well because they are saving lives. Soldiers think they should get more for making us all safe. Police think they should get more for reducing the level of crime in society which benefits us all. Teachers think they should get more because they a…

That's why labor policy is so important. The guy digging proverbial ditches does indeed deserve more, but the market has been distorted by large corporations who lobby for lax enforcement of immigration law. On the other end of the spectrum engineers and programmers probably deserve more but the market has been distorted by large corporations who have lobbied for massive numbers of H1Bs or colluded with each other to…

> The guy digging proverbial ditches does indeed deserve more

How do you know? Do you have some kind of special formula to determine what people deserve to be paid? Otherwise, it's just subjective.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#589

Post by twblalock »

jazzyk wrote: post #266
morgante wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glassdoor skews heavily downwards. Even for companies I've worked at, where I knew what everyone made, its data was roughly 25-40% below reality. Also, why look at median salary? We're arguing over whether it's "possible" to become affluent as a mere employee—even if only the top 20% of engineers are capable of it, it's certainly possible.

Maybe I am a total loser, but I am not aware of any companies which "routinely" pay $300K for technical positions, not even at the Director level, in the Boston area.

Wayfair does, in Boston.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#590

Post by WalterBright »

xiaoma wrote: post #576

The part of this that looks more important than forbidding recruiters from asking about previous pay is this: > "And the law will require equal pay not just for workers whose jobs are alike, but also for those whose work is of “comparable character” or who work in “comparable operations.” Workers with more seniority will still be permitted to earn higher pay, but the law effectively broadens the definition of what is…

It also means that pay will be determined by judges, not markets, as it is an impossible to define concept. More of the economy will get sucked up into litigation.

Comparable Worth is another incarnation of the Labor Theory of Value, which has long been discredited.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value

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