Police had woman’s Facebook deactivated during standoff • Hacker News Board

Re: Police had woman’s Facebook deactivated during standoff

#51

Post by erdevs » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 3:50 AM UTC

tedunangst wrote: post #50

erdevs wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the rationale for news outlets not showing an ongoing police operation? Is it so that the suspects / perpetrators can't use the external information against the police? If so, does that rationale applicable when it is the suspect / perpetrator broadcast their own available information? I don't know the background for these policies, so asking the first question non-rhetorically.

Tends to attract even more lookieloos.

That's a good point of concern, for sure.

Re: Police had woman’s Facebook deactivated during standoff

#52

Post by clarkmoody » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 4:06 AM UTC

williamscales wrote: post #3

This seems entirely appropriate. It would be consistent with the practice of news outlets sometimes not showing an ongoing police operation live.

Also, using a police scanner while committing a crime carries an additional penalty in certain jurisdictions. Probably along the same lines as far as rationale goes.

Re: Police had woman’s Facebook deactivated during standoff

#53

Post by labster » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 4:18 AM UTC

donatj wrote: post #36

HelloImDumb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I love that Monday morning quarterbacking. Crazed gunman? Come back later. Crazed gunman with a kid? Come back later. Crazed fugitive gunman with a warrant out, with a kid, threatening to kill police? Let them settle down, come back later. There was outrage in my town over a standoff with a guy (with kids) who was having attempted to be served on him by the cops for the dozenth time after a year on the lam, fo…

Answer me this. Honestly. Is people getting served really more important than people's lives?

That's basically the balance that government makes, with the answer typically being "sometimes". Is people's electricity service more important than people who die from air pollution? Is getting on an airplane one hour faster more important than people who die from terrorism? There are no easy answers.

Re: Police had woman’s Facebook deactivated during standoff

#54

Post by rfrey » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 4:25 AM UTC

trvrsalom wrote: post #38

_audakel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if police are about to shoot, and have good cause to, then it would seem reasonable that they be allowed to use sleep gas or tranquilizer, similar to what doctors use during operation. Seems better than killing them. Downside could be lawsuites against the police for "damages" that the sleep gas caused.

As nice as it would be to have a reliable nonlethal alternative to firearms, there simply are no nonlethal weapons capable of stopping someone who is presenting an immediate threat. Tranquilizers and anesthesia are administered by an anesthesiologist, a doctor trained to determine a dosage based on a person's body mass. Too much of a dose, or even administering it too quickly can cause serious complications, or even…

Could you clarify what you mean by 1/20 patients dying? I looked at http://patient.info/health/anaesthesia-death-or-brain-damage and it said the risk of death (England and Wales) was 1/100,000 full anesthetics.

Re: Police had woman’s Facebook deactivated during standoff

#55

Post by pyromine » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 4:53 AM UTC

rfrey wrote: post #54

trvrsalom wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As nice as it would be to have a reliable nonlethal alternative to firearms, there simply are no nonlethal weapons capable of stopping someone who is presenting an immediate threat. Tranquilizers and anesthesia are administered by an anesthesiologist, a doctor trained to determine a dosage based on a person's body mass. Too much of a dose, or even administering it too quickly can cause serious complications, or even…

Could you clarify what you mean by 1/20 patients dying? I looked at http://patient.info/health/anaesthesia-death-or-brain-damage and it said the risk of death (England and Wales) was 1/100,000 full anesthetics.

Definitely questioning that 1/20 figure, I had full anesthesia with a surgery earlier this year and I'm pretty sure I'd be informed of that kind of risk.

Re: Police had woman’s Facebook deactivated during standoff

#56

Post by walrus01 » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 5:02 AM UTC

erdevs wrote: post #7

Tragic and unfortunate, all around. I wonder what FB's policy on this will be going forward. In many ways, these livestreams are a public good and provide transparency and additional accountability in these situations. If people elect to stream them, it seems wrong to shut it down. On the other hand, perhaps there is a public good in not showing an ongoing live police operation? I think I'd lean toward not agreeing t…

From a Facebook abuse and law enforcement operations perspective, if this happens more often it will become a huge pain in the ass. They have procedures in place to provide geolocation and such for urgent subpoenas and warrants (example: a kidnapping in progress). The level of stress that the FB team responsible for this ticket queue must experience is immense.

Re: Police had woman’s Facebook deactivated during standoff

#57

Post by tonmoy » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 5:03 AM UTC

Couldn't they have just cut the Internet for the place and block her cell phone?

Re: Police had woman’s Facebook deactivated during standoff

#58

Post by walrus01 » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 5:05 AM UTC

trvrsalom wrote: post #38

_audakel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if police are about to shoot, and have good cause to, then it would seem reasonable that they be allowed to use sleep gas or tranquilizer, similar to what doctors use during operation. Seems better than killing them. Downside could be lawsuites against the police for "damages" that the sleep gas caused.

As nice as it would be to have a reliable nonlethal alternative to firearms, there simply are no nonlethal weapons capable of stopping someone who is presenting an immediate threat. Tranquilizers and anesthesia are administered by an anesthesiologist, a doctor trained to determine a dosage based on a person's body mass. Too much of a dose, or even administering it too quickly can cause serious complications, or even…

For reference, what happens when you use "knock out gas" in a contained space:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisi...

Re: Police had woman’s Facebook deactivated during standoff

#59

Post by will_brown » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 5:14 AM UTC

donatj wrote: post #36

HelloImDumb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I love that Monday morning quarterbacking. Crazed gunman? Come back later. Crazed gunman with a kid? Come back later. Crazed fugitive gunman with a warrant out, with a kid, threatening to kill police? Let them settle down, come back later. There was outrage in my town over a standoff with a guy (with kids) who was having attempted to be served on him by the cops for the dozenth time after a year on the lam, fo…

Answer me this. Honestly. Is people getting served really more important than people's lives?

>Is people getting served really more important than people's lives?

She wasn't just being served court documents, the police were executing a bench warrant, meaning the police were there to bring her into jail. Moreover, the officers went into this knowing this woman was charged with 4 misdemeanors including resisting arrest, and then she didn't go to court and that is why they were there. Execution of bench warrants is one of the most dangerous jobs of law enforcement, even against non-violent defendants, its probably not good policy to tell officers to execute bench warrants...unless defendants threaten you with violence, in which case, not only don't bring the defendant to jail on the bench warrant but don't charge them with the new crime either.

It would be like saying, is giving a seat belt ticket more important than lives? Of course not, but that doesn't mean pulling a gun on an office is your way out of a traffic ticket.

Re: Police had woman’s Facebook deactivated during standoff

#60

Post by nness » Wed, Aug 03, 2016, 5:36 AM UTC

Overtonwindow wrote: post #13

I think this is a very unfortunate situation, but the thought of Facebook disabling her account at the behest of the police, that doesn't feel right. We seen that we cannot always trust the police perspective in shootings, so instead of disabling the account, perhaps Facebook should have instead continue to record the feed but disable the comments.

If you think about it from Facebook's perspective though, do you really want to be responsible for broadcasting a video where the women, her child or a police officer is shot or killed on camera?