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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#561

Post by HillaryBriss »

wavefunction wrote: post #107
Cherian_Abraham wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't a service offered by a credit bureau that I know, which allows an employer or a lender to find out about a prospect's salary. Salary info is used for credit risk strategies, and only where applicable or allowed.

I just posted one offered by Experian in a reply to one of your sibling comments.

I don't know how credible this is, but "The Work Number" (owned by Equifax) put this on an FAQ about this nefarious service:

Can just anyone get my income information from The Work Number?

No. You have to give someone authorization to get your income information from the service. There are numerous ways in which you can give someone authorization to access your income information. A few examples - by signing a borrower's authorization form when applying for a loan or by creating a salary key on our service, a one-time electronic signature.

More at: http://www.theworknumber.com/Employees/Help/faq.asp?category...

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#562

Post by tuna-piano »

zaroth wrote: post #558
PostOnce wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the linesmen who provide the power for your computers? What about the road workers who make it possible for you to get to work? What about the African miners who dig up the rare earths for your components to run your computer? What about the guys soldering all this crap together? I bet you'd say the road worker creates hardly any value, but in reality the economy just ceases to function without roads. Or s…

Our economy pays differently for different jobs for exactly one reason; scarcity. The best road workers in the world, they do what? The best miner? Now, the best coder? Some coders should be paid like the best road worker. Few road workers should be paid like the best coders, because there's just too many ready replacements who would do the work for less. Coding is becoming that way, but far from it currently. Our be…

It's not just scarcity. That ignores half the equation (demand).

Poop popsicles are extremely rare (I have yet to see one). But their price would be essentially $0, if/when they exist.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#563

Post by codeddesign »

eru wrote: post #525
zenlikethat wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the Internet, it's real life too. If salaries are low across the board at $COMPANY it's an easy wedge for the management to use. "We couldn't give you more because then you would be making more than your coworkers. Do you feel like you really deserve more? You should be happy to have what you do already." If your coworkers are also too meek to ask for raises it's bad news for all the engineers. Pressure…

Yes. And that's why every employee should spend some low amount of background effort constantly interviewing elsewhere. First, to get a feeler for what the rest of the market is doing. Second, to take a better offer if available. Third, even a committed lifer needs to keep the interviewing skills sharp, in case of layoffs or bankruptcy.

You do realize that it costs companies more to continually hire. If you add real value to a company, from my experience most non-global companies see and understand that. However, in many cases the engineer is mediocre in their job (regardless of actual skill) and still expects a company to increase their pay. In a generation of people that feel something is owed to them, unfortunately the mediocre engineer covers 80% of the talent pool.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#564

Post by rpgmaker »

stygiansonic wrote: post #449
r0m4n0 wrote: post #416

I applied and soon after worked as an engineer for a large company that not only asked for my previous compensation but part of the application process involved my employer validating that I actually made what I told them. They worked with a third party to match my figures with W2 statements and/or pay stubs. It was really intrusive. Pay should equate to value, not some silly ladder climb

I'm sorry that you had to go through this. I agree that it's intrusive and really shouldn't be tolerated. A while ago, I was in the middle of the job interview process for a company. Having read some rudimentary background on salary negotiation, I was somewhat prepared for how to deflect the "how much are you making?" question. The next interview was a technical interview, so I wasn't too focused on this aspect of th…

That's painful but also kind of funny because we all have been there one way or another.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#565

Post by HillaryBriss »

bcheung wrote: post #543
rev_bird wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A better law would be that employers may not discriminate or refuse to hire someone if they refuse to tell them their previous salary. To be honest, this does not seem like a better law at all. "You can ask about this information, but you can't use it" just means they'll come up with some other excuse for doing whatever they wanted to do all along. The problem isn't the "speech" itself, it's the demanding of informa…

Asking is different than demanding. They can't use it if they didn't receive an answer. They can ask, and then the candidate can choose whether they want to answer or not. It may be beneficial to the candidate to answer, or they may not really care if the company knows. It accomplishes the same thing but doesn't limit speech. Sometimes a job candidate might even want them to ask so they can set the minimum bar of wha…

In California, there actually are prohibitions on asking certain kinds of questions of prospective employees:

The California Fair Employment and Housing Act (FEHA) prohibits any non-job-related inquiries of applicants or employees, either verbally or through the use of an application form, that express, directly or indirectly a limitation, specification or discrimination as to race, religious creed, color, national origin, ancestry, physical disability, mental disability, medical condition, marital status, sex, age, or sexual orientation, or any intent to make such a limitation, specification, or discrimination.

See http://www.dfeh.ca.gov/res/docs/publications/dfeh-161.pdf

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#566

Post by rpgmaker »

rev_bird wrote: post #390
lukejduncan wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've followed this advice in the past with mixed results. Some companies do a great job of either respecting this or not asking in the first place. When I interviewed at Uber (a little more than a year back), the recruiter was super persistent. I told them "I understand why you're interested, but it's my personal preference at the advice of personal mentors, not to disclose that information. If we both like each othe…

> "OK, we can do that. But we have a policy of always making the lowest possible offer to candidates who won't share their compensation information. I just want the best for you." This makes absolutely no sense to me. "Oh, we can't use previous compensation to effectively lowball this candidate we like, so we'll ineffectively lowball them instead."

When I read that I immediately pictured a (very) pissed mob boss. What an asshole.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#567

Post by zaroth »

tuna-piano wrote: post #562
zaroth wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our economy pays differently for different jobs for exactly one reason; scarcity. The best road workers in the world, they do what? The best miner? Now, the best coder? Some coders should be paid like the best road worker. Few road workers should be paid like the best coders, because there's just too many ready replacements who would do the work for less. Coding is becoming that way, but far from it currently. Our be…

It's not just scarcity. That ignores half the equation (demand). Poop popsicles are extremely rare (I have yet to see one). But their price would be essentially $0, if/when they exist.

Scarcity is supply below demand, not just low supply. Scarcity implies a shortage, and shortage implies too little, not just low supply, right?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#568

Post by ghshephard »

PostOnce wrote: post #501
markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

What about the linesmen who provide the power for your computers? What about the road workers who make it possible for you to get to work? What about the African miners who dig up the rare earths for your components to run your computer? What about the guys soldering all this crap together? I bet you'd say the road worker creates hardly any value, but in reality the economy just ceases to function without roads. Or s…

Major difference is trainable skills versus innate talent. The number of people who can be trained/educated to perform the tasks you described above are pretty large. The number of people who can write elegant, concise code is a pretty small pool.

It's also important to distinguish between day-day coders who write CRUD apps (trainable skill), and developers who develop platforms that others build on.

Another way of looking at this - by providing significant rewards to top-end developers (and top end developers should be starting around $500K, and be making north of $1mm with 5-6 years of experience in their chosen vertical), you encourage outstanding individuals who might chose another field where they might be more richly rewarded (Law, Finance, ...) to put their skills to good use in programming.

And that's the crux of the matter - I don't believe we should provide outsized rewards to developers with exceptional talent because they deserve the extra money - I think everyone who works a 40-hour week deserves a comfortable, stress free life. I believe we should provide outsized rewards to developers with exceptional talent so as to ensure efficient allocation of capital and labor, resulting in economies with increased productivity, and greater rewards for everyone interlinked in that economy.

From that perspective - I guess I agree with you, we are all cogs working together to make this amazing machine -I just want to make sure the right cogs are allocated to the right machine.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#569

Post by erdevs »

r0m4n0 wrote: post #416

I applied and soon after worked as an engineer for a large company that not only asked for my previous compensation but part of the application process involved my employer validating that I actually made what I told them. They worked with a third party to match my figures with W2 statements and/or pay stubs. It was really intrusive. Pay should equate to value, not some silly ladder climb

Ugh. This type of behavior should be banned everywhere. It's incredibly invasive and it serves no function in evaluating candidate fit. It serves merely to increase already high information asymmetry against you and reduce your prospective offer from where it might have otherwise landed.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#570

Post by pauljaworski »

nkurz wrote: post #397
pauljaworski wrote: post #380

I've never understood why this question is such a big deal for people. When asked what you made at your last job, you should just give the number you would like to make at this new job.

Some people place an intrinsic value on honesty, and dislike being forced into situations where the advantage is given to brazen liars. I upvoted you since I think this is a topic worth discussing, and probably many others share your view, but I personally find your lack of compunction reprehensible.

I appreciate your honesty!

I say that's what you "should" do, because I think it's the most logical way to respond to that question. That doesn't mean I wouldn't feel guilty about lying, and I've never actually had to do it, so I'm not sure how I would realistically respond in the situation.

In my case, my total compensation at my last job is far more than I could expect to earn at a new job anyway, ha!

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