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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

nytimes.com

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#551

Post by lukejduncan »

cozuya wrote: post #409
lukejduncan wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've followed this advice in the past with mixed results. Some companies do a great job of either respecting this or not asking in the first place. When I interviewed at Uber (a little more than a year back), the recruiter was super persistent. I told them "I understand why you're interested, but it's my personal preference at the advice of personal mentors, not to disclose that information. If we both like each othe…

Wow. It could be 20 years from now and all that's left in tech is Amagoogleapplesoft and I'd still walk out when that was said to my face.

Yeah fair. It was definitely a very negative sign. Having participated in hiring elsewhere, my assumption was maybe it was just a bad recruiter. Generally, engineering managers have a big input into the offer process and I thought I'd give the process the benefit of the doubt over the bad salesmanship. Plus, at that point, it costs me nothing to hear their offer and make a fully informed decision. Even if I knew I wasn't going to take it, waiting a day for a number is a valuable data point.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#552

Post by lukejduncan »

jghn wrote: post #436
thomasahle wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have a policy of always making the lowest possible offer to candidates who won't share their compensation information What does "lowest possible offer" even mean? Lowest wage that you can live off? Lowest wage that anybody else in the company makes? Lowest wage that you'll accept?

It probably means that they have salary bands and you're starting at the bottom

That's what they meant. And probably said. You can take my quote as a (close) paraphrase.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#553

Post by lukejduncan »

bargl wrote: post #398
lukejduncan wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've followed this advice in the past with mixed results. Some companies do a great job of either respecting this or not asking in the first place. When I interviewed at Uber (a little more than a year back), the recruiter was super persistent. I told them "I understand why you're interested, but it's my personal preference at the advice of personal mentors, not to disclose that information. If we both like each othe…

I have experienced this as well. Quick story. Before I took this advice, I made the mistake of telling a recruiter my salary, and then the recruiter said, yeah I'm not going to give you a 20K raise. The guys on that team were great and the compensation was actually viable, but it was not a good fit overall. I think any negotiation where you want to walk away with the best deal you have to be willing to let a job go.…

I used to be super intimidated by negotiation. I recently took a Coursera course that I highly recommend https://www.coursera.org/learn/negotiation. It's not specific to negotiating job offers, but it helped me become a lot more comfortable with the process just to have a framework to think about the whole thing in. It's a really well put together course too.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#554

Post by blazespin »

PostOnce wrote: post #501
markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

What about the linesmen who provide the power for your computers? What about the road workers who make it possible for you to get to work? What about the African miners who dig up the rare earths for your components to run your computer? What about the guys soldering all this crap together? I bet you'd say the road worker creates hardly any value, but in reality the economy just ceases to function without roads. Or s…

Coding is definitely higher value for sure, just as driver who operates a berry picking machine can deliver more value than a migrant individually picking berries.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#556

Post by mark-r »

PostOnce wrote: post #501
markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

What about the linesmen who provide the power for your computers? What about the road workers who make it possible for you to get to work? What about the African miners who dig up the rare earths for your components to run your computer? What about the guys soldering all this crap together? I bet you'd say the road worker creates hardly any value, but in reality the economy just ceases to function without roads. Or s…

Supply/demand. There's a much larger supply of people capable of building roads vs. those capable of developing a system. And the monetary difference between an average road and a really great road is not nearly as much as the difference between an average system and a really great system.

You're right about the value of teams being greater than an individual contributor, but the ability to work within a team is a valuable skill just like any other.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#557

Post by uiri »

zenlikethat wrote: post #511
eru wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chasers will only drag your salary down, if the business can't distinguish you from them when hiring. Luckily, it's pretty easy for you to signal that you are not a chaser. Getting paid more than other folks mostly means you are better at interviewing and negotiations. (Or, if you are a lifer, that you are good at your company's promotion process. If your company is sane, that might even imply something about how…

It's not just the Internet, it's real life too. If salaries are low across the board at $COMPANY it's an easy wedge for the management to use. "We couldn't give you more because then you would be making more than your coworkers. Do you feel like you really deserve more? You should be happy to have what you do already." If your coworkers are also too meek to ask for raises it's bad news for all the engineers. Pressure…

"We couldn't give you more because then you would be making more than your coworkers. Do you feel like you really deserve more? You should be happy to have what you do already."

The answer is to call their bluff and tell them that yes, you do feel like you deserve more. You may or may not add that you feel like your coworkers also deserve more. You can't negotiate your coworkers' salary for them. You're only in a position to negotiate your own.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#558

Post by zaroth »

PostOnce wrote: post #501
markonthewall wrote: post #11

I love the US and California, the tech scene is amazing and I was lucky to met such talented and friendly people in about every place I worked... from very large tech cos to "garage" startups. Which is why it pains me to see that so many engineers get stuck with such ridiculous salaries (relative to the value and wealth they provide and create). Problem is that some salaries are seemingly high compared to what the av…

What about the linesmen who provide the power for your computers? What about the road workers who make it possible for you to get to work? What about the African miners who dig up the rare earths for your components to run your computer? What about the guys soldering all this crap together? I bet you'd say the road worker creates hardly any value, but in reality the economy just ceases to function without roads. Or s…

Our economy pays differently for different jobs for exactly one reason; scarcity.

The best road workers in the world, they do what? The best miner? Now, the best coder? Some coders should be paid like the best road worker. Few road workers should be paid like the best coders, because there's just too many ready replacements who would do the work for less.

Coding is becoming that way, but far from it currently. Our best invention is the one that puts us totally out of work.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#559

Post by rpgmaker »

walshemj wrote: post #345
antisthenes wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I find it quite ironic that one of the most privileged groups on the planet is suddenly supporting an essentially communist argument of wage theft, as soon as there's even a slight possibility of them being underpaid. Apparently they are also entitled to unprecedented upward mobility. I sincerely doubt many software developers here spend any sleepless nights wondering what it would have been like had they been i…

Compared to say being a surgeon? or a lawer some one on here mentioned that a transplant surgeon can make over $15M.

I work in software myself but come on, it's fair to say that being a surgeon is way less trivial and far riskier than being a programmer.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#560

Post by codeddesign »

blazespin wrote: post #554
PostOnce wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the linesmen who provide the power for your computers? What about the road workers who make it possible for you to get to work? What about the African miners who dig up the rare earths for your components to run your computer? What about the guys soldering all this crap together? I bet you'd say the road worker creates hardly any value, but in reality the economy just ceases to function without roads. Or s…

Coding is definitely higher value for sure, just as driver who operates a berry picking machine can deliver more value than a migrant individually picking berries.

Why a migrate rather than say someone who picks berries by hand? Vice did a story comparison on this and actually migrate workers worked harder and picked more fruit than Americans pulled from temp agency. But in your comparison, the machine would be of higher value, the operator would be of little value since it does not take extensive skill to operate - much less skill than someone working on power lines for example. It's all based upon geographic demand.
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