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Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

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Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the poster of your parent comment would disagree with your explanation of the how things are; they're only saying that's not how it should be. If we lived in a just meritocracy, people who created millions of dollars in value with their code would be compensated with millions of dollars, but this is rarely, if ever, the case. It's this fact which makes libertarian arguments about the unfairness of tax a…

The are great advantages to individuals and society to paying less than the value of goods and services. If my daughter is ill, and a simple shot of antibiotics will cure her, should I pay $20 for that, or should I pay what saving her life is actually worth to me? I've enjoyed ever faster internet connection speed at my home (coming in two weeks -- gigabit!) I assure you I'm not paying the full value of what that spe…

> The are great advantages to individuals and society to paying less than the value of goods and services. If my daughter is ill, and a simple shot of antibiotics will cure her, should I pay $20 for that, or should I pay what saving her life is actually worth to me? I've enjoyed ever faster internet connection speed at my home (coming in two weeks -- gigabit!) I assure you I'm not paying the full value of what that speed is worth to me. The same for food, clothes, transportation, everything. If I really did have to pay the full value to me for each of those I would, by definition, be indifferent to buying any of them.

Okay, so what's the society of my boss getting paid twice as much as me while actively impeding my ability to create value?

Also, antibiotics and internet are poor examples of market economics; both are heavily subsidized and regulated. So it's disingenuous to hold these up and then in your following paragraph claim that market economics is helping humanity.

> Market economics has some serious downsides, but it has vastly increased the welfare of humanity. More people have been coming out of poverty in China in the past few decades that ever before in human history.

How do you justify attributing this to free market economics?

> If you feel it is unfair that as a developer you can create millions of dollars in value that you aren't being compensated for, then I recommend you consider ways that you could be compensated for this value. Perhaps instead of being an employee, maybe get involved in a start-up with equity (or found a company.) Having done so, I can assure you it's more nerve wracking than ever I would have expected, and harder to unleash the millions in value than one might expect, but it's still fun, challenging, rewarding, and worth giving a go! :-)

I do think it's unfair, but I actually don't care, because I'm self-aware enough to realize that the way in which our economy hurts me is nothing compared to how it hurts most people. I'm incredibly lucky to have landed in a career where things are only as unfair as they are, and I'd much rather work toward helping people in worse situations than me than in fixing the minor injustice of getting paid less than management.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#312
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High level executives at large corporations are a small enough group with enough common interests that they might as well constitute a union, and they have an exemplary record of preserving value for themselves.

Same for athletes, the MLB Players Union has been extraordinary in preserving value for its members (guaranteed contracts!).

How's the UAW doing? Is it possible that there are factors outside of unionization that affect how these workers are paid?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#313
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's an idea: compensation agents who negotiate the compensation package on your behalf. Athletes and actors have them, why not everyone else? I'd definitely be willing to pay for something like this. Make it commission based (pay as a percentage of additional salary negotiated) and the incentives between the negotiator and client will be perfectly aligned.

the incentives between the negotiator and client will be perfectly aligned. I'm not sure that this is the case when talking about such low amounts. Taking hints from a similar "agent with percentage", think real estate agents. Unless an agent is working with pretty high level homes, the 3% they are getting is not significantly effected by a something like 20k up or down on a $300k house. It's an extra $600, but often…

Could still be room for a win for people who are just exceptionally bad negotiators. Non-confrontationalists who can't bring themselves to ask for more and the like. Basically, a half-assed job by a professional, minus a significant cut, could still be significantly better than just taking a first offer or meekly saying 'Is that the best you can do?' and getting a token 1/2% bump.

Not sure if that would pan out, or that's a large enough target audience. Just a thought.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#314
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other school of thought on this is that the first person to talk numbers has the upper hand due to anchoring power > Just like the word suggests, you want to set a reference point around which the negotiation will revolve. Making the first offer can be to your advantage, as this offer might set the height of the negotiation bar. This anchor is the arena where the two parties will wrangle in a tug and pull negotia…

This works iff you shoot very high/low and if it's a very fungible range of possible outcomes. In something that is fairly well-bounded like job compensation (or most residential real estate transactions, as another example) it's usually better to let the counterparty turn the first card.

That's a sensible rationale as well, but if you are already familiar with the bounds of compensation, may it not be preferable to throw out a number that's slightly higher than the upper bounds of that yourself?

Since employers know the bounds as well, letting them name the first price would seem likely to result in a number that's near the mid range and not take into consideration you as an individual (skills & personality), it would be irresponsible for them not to try to mid-ball you even if they really like you, no?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#315
post #14
post #10

Candidates "may" offer this information upfront? I feel like I'm watching Office Space "Am I supposed to tell you my salary before even hearing your initial offer?" "Some employees choose to offer salary information, and we encourage that"

"We want you to join us for the mission, not for the money. Be a team player and share your salary with us!"

That would be illegal according to this law, I think.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#316
post #220
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Top companies are routinely paying $200k-300k these days Yup, all four of them - Apple, Facebook, Google, Netflix.

Instead of downvoting, please check the median salary for a PRINCIPAL software engineer on Glassdoor (it is self-reported, I believe) - it is 140K, nationally. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/principal-software-engine...

How can that be a meaningful statistic when "principal" means vastly different things at different companies?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#317
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're trained in something because you love it. You really want to do it, and you went to school for it, have experience in it. Someone gives you a choice -- you can do this for $XX/year or you can starve. The labor market is not as "free" as free-marketers make it out to be. I made a mid-career switch from social work to coding in part because of compensation, but it wasn't a friction-free switch. Also, my point wa…

If you're doing it because you love it, then you should consider that joy/satisfaction as part of the comp package. A lot (most?) high-paying jobs are high-paying because people don't love doing them and they involve a lot of sacrifice. That's why they call it 'compensation'.

Then maybe we should have a reverse auction for jobs? I can pretty much guarantee you'll need to pay more for someone to work in a mine than to push pencils in an office, for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_economics#Balanc...

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#318
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make substantially less than 400k and I assure you that I do not live in a cardboard box. $5k is high for monthly expenses. I rented a single bedroom in Manhattan for $1850 and you can save even more if you're willing to live with roommates. I'm not sure what I can do to convince you I'm not lying, but consider that median household income is less than $100k in both SV and NY. If the average person can get by on Of…

Ok, so maybe I'm just bad at math. I know that if you make 200k as an engineer in NYC (which is STILL high[1]), you make around 10k a month after taxes. 10k - 2k for rent - 1k for expenses = 7k saved if you don't go on vacation, and literally do nothing that costs money for ten years. Even saving 7k a month, you won't save 100k a year. [1] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/new-york-city-software-en...

$1k for other 'expenses' is huge. You can drive that down at least by half with wiser spending.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#319
post #276
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I am a total loser, but I am not aware of any companies which "routinely" pay $300K for technical positions, not even at the Director level, in the Boston area.

Because these companies don't exist. Top companies pay SDE3s and tech leads like 300-400k. Medium-sized companies in high cost of living areas pay directors around that much. No one pays engineers that much. Literally no one. Unless you're Norvig or Dijkstra.

Per Quora, the highest tech executive position (CTO) pays in the lower $200Ks (non-founder, up to $75M):

https://www.quora.com/What-would-a-CTO-compensation-equity-b...

Per CIO magazine (2015), CTOs make up to $220K, directors up to $174K:

http://www.cio.com/article/2878056/salary/tech-salary-guide-...

Pretty much all surveys show similar ranges. Do they all "skew heavily downwards"?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't that basically what a recruiter does? Every time I've dealt with a recruiter, they've done the salary haggling for me. Recruiters are much more likely to cut bait and leave an extra 5% on the table to: 1. Keep a good relationship with the employer 2. Keep their turnover high, making money on negotiating many "OK" salaries instead of maximizing each individual salary (including yours).

I agree, except what I generally tell a recruiter what I want for a job before an offer has even been made, and I usually work with multiple at once. It gives me some haggling power without being the one who has to haggle directly.

Sounds like you are already your own "agent" as it were. The rest of us just don't know how to haggle, sadly :|
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