Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay • Hacker News Board

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#191

Post by morgante » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 7:21 PM UTC

dvt wrote: post #168

morgante wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 7 figure annual income is setting the affluent definition very high. You can work at Google for a decade and end up a multi-millionaire, with enough money to retire to most places in the US. From your other comment, it seems like you haven't done the analysis on this. Top companies are routinely paying $200k-300k these days. That's enough to save a million dollars over a decade even if you have a family.

$200k-$300k in places like San Francisco and Menlo Park. Clearly, you don't understand how cost of living works. Also, to make that much, you need to be at around a level of SDE3/tech lead, which is by no means easy (a decade of making low six-figures & some political panache). See this top answer on Quora, for a pretty detailed analysis: https://www.quora.com/Will-I-be-able-to-become-a-millionaire... You might be ab…

You can argue all you want, but I understand how cost of living works plenty well. SV is expensive but not so expensive that it wipes out $200k in income. If you're careful about expenses you can easily put away tens of thousands annually.

This is backed up by own personal experience as a developer in NYC (hardly a low cost area). I expect to have a million dollars saved up within a decade and I certainly haven't relied on political panache to get there.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#192

Post by ef4 » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 7:22 PM UTC

stormbrew wrote: post #53

dudul wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a good engineer will have a say in what to build, not only how to build it. Otherwise all dev work could just be outsourced. IMO, the role of a good engineer is to deeply understand the business/domain to provide good insight in regards to what to build.

I think that everyone believes part of their job should include deciding both what they do and how they do it. I think it's pretty rare for non-managers in any field to have the latter, and extremely rare for any non-managers to have the former. I'm not sure why you believe engineers would be uniquely entitled to make decisions about what they're building. Even in a classical engineering job (building a bridge) they…

This is actually why so many organizations that are good at shipping other kinds of products suck at software: the distinction between "what to build" and "how to build it" is very squishy, and on a complex enough project the distinction is nonexistent.

A complete specification could just be executed. It is the program.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#193

Post by usefulcat » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 7:22 PM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #156

cheald wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that you can tolerate the commensurate risk, absolutely. Many people forget that the rank-and-file employee isn't exposed to the financial and legal risk that their employers were/are.

But they are exposed! In case of financial trouble (very common at startups), who gets to be laid off first, the CEO or the developer? Also, rank-and-file employees are typically scape-goated in legal proceedings, example: finance people going to jail for rogue/insider trading, even though upper management at least encouraged such behavior.

Financially they don't generally risk anything. Yes, your compensation could end at any time due to termination of your employment, but the risk of not getting paid at some point in the future is unavoidable regardless of whether or not you're an employee. The major difference is that as an employee you're very unlikely to have to put any of your own capital at risk.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#194

Post by hnal943 » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 7:22 PM UTC

jonknee wrote: post #121

slg wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a developer, so I am all for higher developer salaries, but your posts shows a common misunderstanding about economics. The value someone creates has nothing to do with their salary. Their salary is dictated by how many people need to hire developers and how many developers exist to fill those jobs or in simple terms, supply and demand. I might create millions of dollars in value with my code, but there might be…

In Silicon Valley it seems popular to just start your own company and capture the value that way, but other fields have solved this issue by unionizing.

Unions do not have a good history of preserving value, at least not in the USA.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#195

Post by gjkood » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

danjoc wrote: post #162

gjkood wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a common saying "Nobody ever gets rich working for someone else". I am not sure how much that is backed up by any statistics but the Bay Area and employees of unicorns or Google/Apple/Amazon/Microsoft/... may be outliers to this adage. Anyway the point I am trying to make is that as an engineer you either have the choice of working for an employer and living an albeit comfortable life (without any risk) or go…

>as an engineer you either have the choice I don't feel like I do. I cannot afford to battle patent trolls when something I produce somehow infringes on their "intellectual properties." There has been some progress, given the Alice vs CLS Bank decision, but there's still lots of patents flying around out there like this one ( https://www.google.com/patents/EP2973038A1 ) where Google attempts to patent "Classifying re…

There is a tremendous amount of risk to go it alone, especially when the alternative is so comfortable and risk free. By all definition you would be crazy to go it alone. The statistics seem to point in that direction.

But then again the reward profile if you are in that 10% to 5% that succeed and have the stomach to continue for the long haul is huge.

I personally am a victim of the 'Analysis Paralysis' that your are alluding to and understand the hesitancy in taking the first step. There is plenty of risk out there and its good to be wary, but if you never take that first step you will never know what your future could be.

Maybe its better to try and fail than never to have tried at all.

Time is not on your side and none of us are getting any younger. (Sorry for all the cliches).

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#196

Post by fecak » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

morgante wrote: post #174

fecak wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote a post a few years ago about agents ( https://jobtipsforgeeks.com/2012/09/17/disrupt/ ) and actually had some people from HN approach me to see if I'd started that service. At the time I hadn't but I'm reconsidering this right now. I wrote the article in response to the incentives for recruiters being typically seen as driven by the client (hiring firm). The main issue is that recruiters are paid by hiring fi…

In my experience, the problem is that those most in need of such a service are those who are least likely to use it. In my peer group, there are some developers who treat their employment like a business and negotiate aggressively. They read up on tactics and practice them. I'm not sure agents would actually be that helpful to such people. Another whole group basically acts like they're paid "enough" and don't negoti…

I see these things too. Most developers believe they are much smarter than the average recruiter (which is certainly true) and probably think they can negotiate at least as well with even minimal training or reading. It's a matter of convincing a smart developer that the negotiation will likely provide a better result than would have happened without the assistance, and for a price that seems both fair and reasonable when compared to the amount negotiated.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#197

Post by up_and_up » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 7:23 PM UTC

skolos wrote: post #167

up_and_up wrote: post #62

Feel free to tell them what you make just add 15-40% to that number. This has worked well for me. Employers seem happy as well. Example: Assuming your current salary is X. "So I currently make (X * 1.20), but in order to make the jump I need at least (X * 1.40)." That way they get to feel out immediately whether they can afford you, you get the salary that would motivate you, and no one is wasting time in the hiring…

Works well until an employer does due diligence (ask for proof of your number). In my experience many (not all) do due diligence.

I would never work for a company that went to that level. In 10 years, I havent seen a company pull that. If you suspect that might be part of their hiring process. Just say "I need to make X" and evade all talk of current salary.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#198

Post by devishard » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 7:24 PM UTC

GFischer wrote: post #165

devishard wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the poster of your parent comment would disagree with your explanation of the how things are; they're only saying that's not how it should be. If we lived in a just meritocracy, people who created millions of dollars in value with their code would be compensated with millions of dollars, but this is rarely, if ever, the case.

As a counterpoint: people don't create millions of dollars in value in a vacuum. Somebody (usually several somebodies) took the chance to create a support structure to enable said person to create the millions of dollars in value. How much of the value should go to the value creator and how much to the enabler with the capital (and the vision to use it in that way instead of spending it on something else) is a very i…

> Somebody (usually several somebodies) took the chance to create a support structure to enable said person to create the millions of dollars in value.

A tech company contains a lot of structure, and very little of that is actually geared toward enabling anyone to create millions of dollars of value. A large portion of that structure exists to enable the management of a company to justify taking in large profits. It's should surprise no one that those creating the structure would create it in a way that benefits them.

I know a few people who work at a tech cooperative, which has mostly developers with 1 secretary who manages benefits/taxes/etc. and 1 "business liaison" who manages customer communication. They've created millions of dollars of value without most of the structure, and it's no coincidence that they're all set to retire in their late 30s.

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#199

Post by paulddraper » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 7:25 PM UTC

ktRolster wrote: post #87

I never tell people anyway. I slightly evade the question and say, (in a somewhat annoyed tone), "I'm looking for something in the $X range," where $X is higher than what I actually want. So far, that's worked out fine, since that is the information they actually want to know.

Exactly. This should get you a long way.

If it's really a deal-breaker (maybe standard red tape or other BS), I say "My previous/current salary is $W, but I'm looking for $X."

After all, there is a reason you're leaving your current employer, right?

Re: Massachusetts Bans Employers from Asking Applicants About Previous Pay

#200

Post by morgante » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 7:26 PM UTC

fecak wrote: post #196

morgante wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, the problem is that those most in need of such a service are those who are least likely to use it. In my peer group, there are some developers who treat their employment like a business and negotiate aggressively. They read up on tactics and practice them. I'm not sure agents would actually be that helpful to such people. Another whole group basically acts like they're paid "enough" and don't negoti…

I see these things too. Most developers believe they are much smarter than the average recruiter (which is certainly true) and probably think they can negotiate at least as well with even minimal training or reading. It's a matter of convincing a smart developer that the negotiation will likely provide a better result than would have happened without the assistance, and for a price that seems both fair and reasonable…

You should align fee structures.

I tell you what I think I can get out of an employer. If you think you can get more, you take me on as a client and receive x% of the additional amount.