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Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

nytimes.com

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Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#261

Post by thomasfoster96 »

lettergram wrote: post #117
matwood wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is quite an interesting time. My liberal friends are all irked because Bernie got hosed by the DNC. My conservative friends are irked because the RNC did not do more to stop Trump. Talk about a role reversal with the party of the people and the party of the establishment. Personally, I see so many problems with both candidates that it makes me sick that I have to vote for the least worst one.

You don't actually have to vote for the least worst one... I recommend looking to third party candidates. The libertarian party has two pretty solid lineup and polls third at the moment (like 11% or something this election cycle). That being said, you can also protest vote by putting in "Edward Snowden" or something. Honestly, I find it horrifying people feel the need to vote for the "least worst option". You're esse…

> Honestly, I find it horrifying people feel the need to vote for the "least worst option". You're essentially electing a temporary dictator (potentially at least), please don't vote for someone you dislike. Even if you dislike one less than the other, you still dislike them...

But that's exactly what you have to do in a first past the post system, and especially with the Electoral college. A vote for Jill Stein (assuming Jill Stein doesn't win) that would have otherwise gone to Hillary Clinton if the voter had chosen the 'least worst option' is in effect a vote against Clinton.

With IRV your advice would be good, but that's not how the US system works.

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#262

Post by jorgeleo »

VLM wrote: post #168
jorgeleo wrote: post #110

I found funny that there are more non-citizens than Hillary or Trump voters

Not very funny for them, because their polling stats are extremely skewed politically, resulting in amnesty turning into a political football. If illegals voted perfectly 50:50 D:R they would have gotten amnesty decades ago and everything would have been reformed and sensible for generations, but its seen as an automatic source of "D" votes therefore as long as we have "D" and "R" they'll fight over it rather than fi…

Except undocumented cannot vote

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#263

Post by HelloMcFly »

anonbanker wrote: post #245
HelloMcFly wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honestly, I find it horrifying people feel the need to vote for the "least worst option". I find it disconcerting that one could use such hyperbolic language when voting for the "least worst" option is clearly the rational thing to do when there are direct, personal stakes from the *outcome. The ramifications to minorities by electing a very conservative Republican, or a pretend-Conservative who is a not-pretend ra…

So, you're arguing for the real-world version of Douglas Adams' "Wrong Lizard"[0] parable? 0. http://www.writingsonthewall.net/the-wrong-lizard

No. But to someone who argues otherwise, I'd imagine there would be no dissuading them of that.

Elections aren't thought experiments. The parable humorously expresses what so many third-party evangelists express: that the candidates are basically equivalent to each other, or equally bad. I find that position distastefully incorrect, or at the very least naively spoken from a position of privilege.

Elections aren't thought experiments, the results will have tangible and long-lasting results. I'm not personally willing to sacrifice some of the issues I perceive to be at stake this election on the altar of a third-party candidate who cannot win. If you are, then great! It's your vote, do with it as you please. It's the moral smugness that usually accompanies the position that bothers me, as if voting for a viable candidate is either irrational or barely moral.

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#264

Post by astazangasta »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #247
astazangasta wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the same thing we hear every election. You can't climb a hill if you don't ever try to go up. Of course I don't believe in elections so this whole debate is academic to me. In a world with ALEC and WPP, elections have nothing to do with governance.

Presumably you're not Hispanic or Arab, so you don't have much to be afraid of personally? It's easy to tell other people to sacrifice for your goals.

I'm Indian, though not Muslim, but certainly frequently mistaken as such by racists. One of my close friends is a Muslim with three daughters she fears for daily. I have much to fear for personally.

But the idea that we have nothing to fear except Trump is bullshit. Trump didn't bring us here. Bush, Clinton and Obama did. Fifteen years of terror and violence in the Mideast did. Actually sixty years if you want.

I fought hard to stop the Iraq war that Clinton voted for. She has nothing to be afraid of personally. I've been afraid too long.

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#266

Post by anonbanker »

HelloMcFly wrote: post #263
anonbanker wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you're arguing for the real-world version of Douglas Adams' "Wrong Lizard"[0] parable? 0. http://www.writingsonthewall.net/the-wrong-lizard

No. But to someone who argues otherwise, I'd imagine there would be no dissuading them of that. Elections aren't thought experiments. The parable humorously expresses what so many third-party evangelists express: that the candidates are basically equivalent to each other, or equally bad. I find that position distastefully incorrect, or at the very least naively spoken from a position of privilege. Elections aren't th…

You say "no". but spend the rest of your reply contradicting that statement, with the rationale that "elections matter". Unless you really think Clinton or Trump isn't a lesser evil, you can see why the "Wrong Lizard" parable applies directly to this case.

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#267

Post by HelloMcFly »

anonbanker wrote: post #266
HelloMcFly wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. But to someone who argues otherwise, I'd imagine there would be no dissuading them of that. Elections aren't thought experiments. The parable humorously expresses what so many third-party evangelists express: that the candidates are basically equivalent to each other, or equally bad. I find that position distastefully incorrect, or at the very least naively spoken from a position of privilege. Elections aren't th…

You say "no". but spend the rest of your reply contradicting that statement, with the rationale that "elections matter". Unless you really think Clinton or Trump isn't a lesser evil, you can see why the "Wrong Lizard" parable applies directly to this case.

Predictable, and predicted. Read it how you want. The parable isn't a fair comparison because the candidates are not equivalent, much less equivalently "evil." I strongly believe arguing otherwise is only done from a place of privilege.

Further, the "Wrong Lizard" parable is a parable of collective-created system. I'm an individual acting within in a moment where the reality is already defined, as are all other individual voters. It's problematic to apply collective-level critiques to individual behaviors because what is less sensible at the collective-level is fully sensible at the individual-level.

But, again, see what you want to see. If it makes you feel like you've got the high ground or something it's no skin off my back.

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