The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes • Hacker News Board

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#151

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 10:15 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #62

dang wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad to hear that an experienced editor sees HN that way, and also that you see evidence of a repeatable approach. Those are good signs. As I'm sure you know, it's a more complex problem than just being willing or unwilling to put up with bad behavior. There are costs to addressing it—quite a few, it turns out, no matter what approach one takes. Our plan is to move HN toward more community self-regulation. Each s…

IMO the biggest challenge of self-moderating communities is avoiding the echo chamber effect: ideas surviving and spreading due to their popularity, rather than their merit. I'm curious if you agree that this is a problem, and what your plans are to address it, if you do.

How on earth do you propose to separate merit from popularity?

Besides, there's also the question of "for whom is this a good idea?" especially in the context of things like Uber and SF property values discussions. It matters which side of the proposition you're on.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#152

Post by Mendenhall » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 10:38 AM UTC

ank_the_elder wrote: post #90

Mendenhall wrote: post #50

Moderators just need a 1 click button that bans the account and deletes all their posts. 1 moderator could get rid of hundreds of accounts an hour. I am a huge fan of the banhammer with no warnings. Rules should be posted and those not following get banned. No one has time for that nonsense IMO.

And what do we do when the moderator uses that button to ban someone purely for his or her opinions being on the wrong side of the political spectrum, or unpalatable to the moderator?

Thats something that should be covered with the moderators beforehand as to what is to be banned etc. I personally would remove the moderator just like any other bad employee. Also why I think its a good policy to pay them and not just have people doing it for free.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#153

Post by mootothemax » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 10:44 AM UTC

orionblastar wrote: post #101

andrewbinstock wrote: post #3

When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people. Ultimately, we settled on two components: treat everyone respectfully even those who seemed to be trolling, and delete all insulting posts. This largely worked. Similar elements seem to work here on HN too. That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests t…

I am working on a project that will eventually reward good users with credits they can sell for Bitcoin. It is not my idea but I got recruited into it. http://kr5ddit.com but the server might not handle too many requests. I am trying to help convert the software to an open source license. Users earn credits for having comments and posts voted up by others who spend credits moderating content. Downvoting bad content e…

FYI Chrome's telling me that your SSL cert expired a week ago.

I think your site could work if it remains small. As soon as it grows large enough to be worth gaming for fun and profit, I can't see any way of avoiding it - very sadly!

There's also the opportunity for all kinds of fun with users colluding with each other - and no doubt some fraud with others along the way.

If you manage to pull it off, more kr3ddit to you!

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#154

Post by StevePerkins » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 10:46 AM UTC

lmm wrote: post #138

dang wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad to hear that an experienced editor sees HN that way, and also that you see evidence of a repeatable approach. Those are good signs. As I'm sure you know, it's a more complex problem than just being willing or unwilling to put up with bad behavior. There are costs to addressing it—quite a few, it turns out, no matter what approach one takes. Our plan is to move HN toward more community self-regulation. Each s…

How are you measuring success? I feel that the quality of HN has declined a lot over the last year or two; we see a lot more one-liners and "couldn't resist" comments, and less technical content. (I think the caustic attitude of old HN helped; people who made jokes used to be shot down very quickly, whereas now people try to be nice about it). I now consciously avoid the site while America is awake.

> I now consciously avoid the site while America is awake.

Is this one of those troll comments to which we should respond by saying something nice? Because if it were an American making a similar comment in reverse, then it would be buried as jingoistic/xenaphobic/racist/etc.

You look great today.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#155

Post by Mendenhall » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 10:47 AM UTC

krapp wrote: post #76

Mendenhall wrote: post #50

Moderators just need a 1 click button that bans the account and deletes all their posts. 1 moderator could get rid of hundreds of accounts an hour. I am a huge fan of the banhammer with no warnings. Rules should be posted and those not following get banned. No one has time for that nonsense IMO.

Plenty of imageboards have that feature. It doesn't tend to lead to higher quality content or a better community, though, it just leads to sockpuppet accounts, shitposting (because no one has any reason to invest themselves beyond the most superficial level) and mods with Napoleon complexes.

Do you think part of the "mods with Nepolean complexes" often happen because they are not paid ?

I think mods need to get reviewed and logs looked at as to why they deleted accounts etc. To me a mod deleting things that shouldnt be is a rogue employee. Personally I am part of some very heavily moderated forums and I really enjoy them. I find people invest because they appreciate it being looked after and not a childish troll fest that muddles finding good posts.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#156

Post by philh » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 10:49 AM UTC

RhodaLs wrote: post #115

DHMO wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> delete all insulting posts This would be ok on HN. I'd rather that than people downvoting because they disagree or because you made an honest mistake. It wounds me every time I get a downvote, and often I just logout and create a new user, so that I don't feel marred by being associated with a past comment that someone didn't like. I had a serious amount of karma about 9 years ago and probably should've just gotten…

I agree with you. HN should get rid of the downvotes. They don't really serve a useful purpose. It just adds needless friction and anxiety, puts a certain amount of negativity at the center of the discussion, and reinforces a certain level of groupthink. If someone's factually wrong, a response pointing out the errors is far more effective than a downvote, and encourages further discussion. If something is offensive,…

> If someone's factually wrong, a response pointing out the errors is far more effective than a downvote, and encourages further discussion. If something is offensive, flag the comment and move on.

I try to downvote poor conversation norms: a common one is replying to an argument that someone didn't make. (Especially when it begins "oh, so you think...") I'd be okay with flagging such things if we agreed that that was an acceptable thing to flag for. In the meantime, I think it's good to downvote such things.

Plus, it seems arrogant to say, but some people are simply clueless. Pointing out their errors is exhausting, and doesn't make them less clueless. They're not actually trolls, but they might as well be. I'm not sure about flagging such people, but I'm okay with downvoting them.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#157

Post by philh » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 10:54 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #150

RhodaLs wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. HN should get rid of the downvotes. They don't really serve a useful purpose. It just adds needless friction and anxiety, puts a certain amount of negativity at the center of the discussion, and reinforces a certain level of groupthink. If someone's factually wrong, a response pointing out the errors is far more effective than a downvote, and encourages further discussion. If something is offensive,…

> If someone's factually wrong, a response pointing out the errors is far more effective than a downvote, and encourages further discussion. If something is offensive, flag the comment and move on. That depends on how wrong they are. There's plenty of fringe lunacy that's wrong but you could spend all your life uselessly rebutting. Everything from chemtrails to anarchocapitalism. In this context, downvote is basicall…

> Everything from chemtrails to anarchocapitalism.

Here we see one problem with downvoting lunacy: some people notice it where it doesn't exist, and others fail to see it where it does.

I'm not ancap myself, but I think the movement deserves respect; for example, I've not read The Machinery of Freedom, but I've heard good things about it, and I don't think you can dismiss it as fringe lunacy.

Chemtrails, though? Obviously dumb.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#158

Post by Asooka » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 11:01 AM UTC

andrewbinstock wrote: post #3

When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people. Ultimately, we settled on two components: treat everyone respectfully even those who seemed to be trolling, and delete all insulting posts. This largely worked. Similar elements seem to work here on HN too. That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests t…

Except that HN hellbans people for seemingly trolling when they aren't. Sometimes. I've learned that in general you should keep your posts as apolitical as possible on HN.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#159

Post by pjc50 » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 11:10 AM UTC

philh wrote: post #157

pjc50 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If someone's factually wrong, a response pointing out the errors is far more effective than a downvote, and encourages further discussion. If something is offensive, flag the comment and move on. That depends on how wrong they are. There's plenty of fringe lunacy that's wrong but you could spend all your life uselessly rebutting. Everything from chemtrails to anarchocapitalism. In this context, downvote is basicall…

> Everything from chemtrails to anarchocapitalism. Here we see one problem with downvoting lunacy: some people notice it where it doesn't exist, and others fail to see it where it does. I'm not ancap myself, but I think the movement deserves respect; for example, I've not read The Machinery of Freedom , but I've heard good things about it, and I don't think you can dismiss it as fringe lunacy. Chemtrails, though? Obv…

"Lunacy" more as a modality of discussion than a property of the ideas themselves. Usually involving taking the ideas as dogma and failing to think about practical application or relevance to the particular subject under discussion.

Another example: Marx wrote a lot of reasonable analysis of the mid-19th-century economic condition (and some bad analysis). Marxists tend to be tremendously irritating write-only dogmatists. It doesn't have to be that way. The right has a similar bunch of people who are Friedman dogmatists.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#160

Post by Mithaldu » Tue, Aug 02, 2016, 11:12 AM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #154

lmm wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you measuring success? I feel that the quality of HN has declined a lot over the last year or two; we see a lot more one-liners and "couldn't resist" comments, and less technical content. (I think the caustic attitude of old HN helped; people who made jokes used to be shot down very quickly, whereas now people try to be nice about it). I now consciously avoid the site while America is awake.

> I now consciously avoid the site while America is awake. Is this one of those troll comments to which we should respond by saying something nice? Because if it were an American making a similar comment in reverse, then it would be buried as jingoistic/xenaphobic/racist/etc. You look great today.

Serious answer: Cultural differences DO exist. I come from a place where, confusingly, passive-agressiveness is preferred over direct confrontation, AND sarcasm is used very seldomly and only very obviously.

Both of these things put me on edge with americans who, on average, despise passive aggressiveness and use sarcasm as if it were the salt of conversation. The result is that i have to think in a completely different mindset to talk to US people, to avoid misunderstanding them or having them be disgusted by the way i talk.