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The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

stactivist.com

11–20 of 204 posts

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#11

A little meta-civility goes a long way, too. If one is inclined to call people jerks, bozos and assholes, perhaps one is not understanding people very well. It’s much more effective to work learn about people, their predilections, biases and experiences. No one is a “checkbox” asshole. Much better to focus on specific behaviors, instead of writing off a person as a type. When I see a company describe its “no assholes…

> When I see a company describe its “no assholes” rule, I see a company inclined toward calling people assholes.

I agree. I'd rather they have a "golden rule" policy which would effectively accomplish the same thing, but coming from a positive perspective. Starting from a negative point means expectations are low.

I had the good fortune of working at a place for 6 years where I never heard someone use a curse word or speak unprofessionally about another co-worker. People had opinions and there were heated debates, but ultimately with the goal of doing the right thing. There was stress and pressure, but it came from the work, not the interpersonal relationships. This place had no specific rule about culture. It just had leadership that led by example.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#12
I would add one thing to the author's list of admirable behavior: always seek out the truth, no matter where it lies.

IMO a component of the growing toxic atmosphere in public discourse is the "win at all costs" mindset, that fosters the belief that a little white lie here and there is justified by the end goal.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#13
post #5

I want to inline a linked reference and provide a summary as a form of protecting the reference against link-rot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_No_Asshole_Rule Their unpleasant behaviours were catalogued by Sutton as The Dirty Dozen: (Robert Cipriano (2011), "No Jerks Allowed in This Department", Facilitating a Collegial Department in Higher Education, John Wiley and Sons, ISBN 978-1-118-10764-5) Insults Violatio…

The problem with this list is that there are vastly more refined ways of being an asshole, which no list can catch. So these coarse lists are often suggested by the refined assholes so that no one can call them out. Civility is a very powerful weapon of keeping power structures in place.

Civility can also be a powerful weapon in dismantling corrupt power structures. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#14
post #8

Recommended reading: "Assholes, a Theory", by Aaron James. This is a serious analysis of asshole behavior and why society rewards it. The latter is the key point. There are benefits to being an asshole in some organizations.

Sooo... anecdote.

My phone (and Internet) company only allowed switching to a different plan (for phone and Internet at home) when at least two years had passed since the initial contract. So there still was about a month before I could do anything, their web interface would not let me switch the plan and instead told me the above.

So the day after the two years are over I go back to the web form to switch my plan - only this time they told me "it's too late, you should have told us before the two years period is over. We have extended your contract by another year and you cannot make a switch during that time - please come back in a year!"

I had tried to switch a month prior and it didn't work!

So I asked them. Nicely. Only got the standard response (copy and paste of a text block). I asked again. Still quite nicely. The same. Then no more reaction at all.

NOTE: The plan I switched to was better for THEM too! They wanted to switch as many people as possible to VoIP and that is what I wanted to get, and I still paid the same. More speed - but that doesn't really make a difference to them, and I don't even use it apart from very rare and very brief peaks. There were articles in the newspaper about the trouble they had getting people to switch to VoIP which they needed for cost-cutting, and how they tried to bait them. I volunteered!

I switched to full-out asshole behavior. I send them an email several times a day (and I know they can't just suppress it, it was a new ticket each time). I called them several times.

My thought process: If I'm nice they can just ignore me. No disadvantage for them at all. So instead I tried to raise their costs. Since they can't ignore the tickets and the calls - they don't know it's me - I calculated that they would react when it costs them money, when I occupy real people's time.

A week later I had the new contract.

I regret nothing.

PS: It was Deutsche Telekom.

-------------------------------------

By the way, bonus content, speaking about assholes here is what I found is the best way to be an asshole in Internet forums. I found out the hard way - by finding out what I myself found hardest to ignore when getting trolled.

- You must not be emotionally invested. The best trolling can be done when you yourself don't care at all, when whatever you write is more like "work", you just "have to get it done".

- Important: Act stupid! Nothing affects people as deeply as having a complete idiot troll them. It also makes the first rule easier, because you don't need to think. You can just write whatever. The best thing is to exude complete confidence but post something completely irrelevant, but not too much so: It must be believable that you seem to believe your irrelevant link as proof of your opinion is indeed relevant. Acting-stupid behavior also makes it much more believable that the responses don't get through to you, so you deprive the other person of the satisfaction of trolling you.

- Don't bother replying right away! Let the other person think it's over. A new message out of the blue 3 days later has significantly more impact because they don't expect it and think they are safe. This goes with the first rule, 3 days later you have no emotional connection to the original conversation and probably forgot all about it. So sending replies so much later indeed is just a chore without emotional involvement.

I think in order to fight trolling one has to first understand where its power lies.

The last rule has implications for criticizing anyone in real life: You get the worst reaction when it's not expected. So in order to make criticizing e.g. of co-workers safer for everybody we could introduce times, for example once per week, where we announce that the only allowed conversation is something critical. Just a thought. Something along those lines, obviously needs more thinking and needs to be adapted to the local situation.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#15

I would add one thing to the author's list of admirable behavior: always seek out the truth, no matter where it lies. IMO a component of the growing toxic atmosphere in public discourse is the "win at all costs" mindset, that fosters the belief that a little white lie here and there is justified by the end goal.

Not all truths are the same size, though. If someone is ugly, telling them so in conversation is both completely truthful and completely unhelpful.

Just because something is true doesn't mean it's necessary to say it out loud, or constructive to building a civil, respectful space.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#16
Straight to the point. My colleague clearly and succinctly explained why an inappropriate behavior occurred and what motivated him to respond.

If this happens visibly to the team it is likely that the person behind the behavior will take this as an attack, especially if he/she is a true asshole. Not good for long-term working climate. Also, it has a flavor of "white-knighting" oneself if it's done in front of the team.

A more diplomatic and expedient approach would be

a) Approaching the person behind the behavior in private and letting him/her know that such behavior isn't tolerated. And

b) approaching the targeted person in private and assuring him/her of your support in case it happens again.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#17

Actually I see the present problem as exactly the opposite. More and more we live in a culture where people think it's their right to feel offended and for anyone saying anything that makes them fell that way to just be shut up by someone (some faculty department for instance). It is becoming basically a Politically Correct culture of censorship and we keep seeing opinion texts (just like this one) that appeal to tha…

> I don't see it as more and more people becoming jerks, I see it as more and more people becoming thin skinned.

People claim to be "thin skinned" because it works as far as effecting an overall narrative. You can limit the conversation to what you want to talk about by declaring anything you don't want to talk about as 'triggering'. It's unreasonably effective, as is the jerk approach. People aren't overly harsh on online communities because they're all jerks. People respond more strongly to harsh or negative rhetoric than they do calmly stated facts or figures.

The phenomenon we're seeing are people identifying what tactics work and applying them. It's the weaponization of social media.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#18

A little meta-civility goes a long way, too. If one is inclined to call people jerks, bozos and assholes, perhaps one is not understanding people very well. It’s much more effective to work learn about people, their predilections, biases and experiences. No one is a “checkbox” asshole. Much better to focus on specific behaviors, instead of writing off a person as a type. When I see a company describe its “no assholes…

>"When I see a company describe its “no assholes” rule, I see a company inclined toward calling people assholes."

I've seen variations of this pop-up more-and-more over the last few years and from my experience it usually hides the insecurities/bad behavior of the founder(s) and management team. Too often the "no asshole/jerk" rule is really code for "anyone who doesn't agree with us" and results in very vanilla organizations with little diversity.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#19

When I was the editor of Dr. Dobb's, we were very concerned about how to create a lively discussion forum that was free from jerks and unpleasant people. Ultimately, we settled on two components: treat everyone respectfully even those who seemed to be trolling, and delete all insulting posts. This largely worked. Similar elements seem to work here on HN too. That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests t…

That the efficacy of this approach is repeatable suggests that the problem exists primarily b/c sites are willing to put up with bad behavior.

Many people, even people running discussion forums with years of experience, simply do not know how to fix it and often believe it cannot be fixed. It is also common for them to "put out the fire with gasoline." On an email list, I used to say "fighting against the fighting is still fighting." Many people do not know how to address bad behavior that doesn't involve some form of fighting, punishment, etc and this tends to deepen the problem rather than resolve it.

You may have figured it out and HN may be doing pretty well with it, but that is not evidence that the problem continues elsewhere merely because people are willing to put up with it. It is far more complicated than that. One of the problems is that absence of a problem does not, by itself, point to effectiveness of a particular approach. In fact, what you will often see is that outsiders will assume you were merely lucky to not have had X thing occur rather than that you did something elegant to kill the problem without overt drama. The lack of overt drama gets read by most people as evidence of lack of a problem, not smoothness in handling it.

Re: The vanishing civility: The game of jerks, bozos and assholes

#20

I would add one thing to the author's list of admirable behavior: always seek out the truth, no matter where it lies. IMO a component of the growing toxic atmosphere in public discourse is the "win at all costs" mindset, that fosters the belief that a little white lie here and there is justified by the end goal.

Not all truths are the same size, though. If someone is ugly, telling them so in conversation is both completely truthful and completely unhelpful. Just because something is true doesn't mean it's necessary to say it out loud, or constructive to building a civil, respectful space.

Useless but brutally honest truths aren't something we have abundance of in our society.

We are, however, drowning in possibly-actionable nuggets of data that range from the somewhat-truthy to the probably-bullshit area of the honesty spectrum.

That people fabricate -- and worse, repeat without fact-checking -- such information contributes to the problem I refer to.

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