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Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

nytimes.com

231–240 of 267 posts

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#231

So what? if Americans focused more on congressional elections then things could change. There's only so much a president can do.

That's true. People act like the President has all the power. But that's now how our government work. Power is divided between all the three branches of the government. The President does not have all the power. Those that fear Trump will become a dictator does not understand the checks and balances of our government.

> Those that fear Trump will become a dictator does not understand the checks and balances of our government.

Or they recognize that the checks and balances of our government are not magic, and that Trump being elected as the nominee of a major party would also reflect a shift in the political landscape which would be reflected, particularly, in the actions of other politicians in that party, especially in the other elected branch -- and that those two branches together have the power to reshape the remaining branch.

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#232
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This strategy makes sense in battleground states but what about in the opposite case (say hawaii (very D) or wyoming (very R)) - I'd argue that by voting for the third party candidate is the better option as you are unlikely to change the outcome of the election one way or the other - but you reduce the mandate of the winner that you are less aligned with, and by marginally improving the showing of the third party, m…

I would agree that it matters less in non-battleground states, and could have the effects mentioned. This, in general, causes one of the two parties to absorb some of the causes put forward by the third party, which is one of the reasons the system tends to centralize toward two parties.

To a degree, this has already happened. Some planks of Clinton's platform came directly from Sanders (I'm thinking of revamping college tuition and enhancing other social safety nets specifically).

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#233
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree that it matters less in non-battleground states, and could have the effects mentioned. This, in general, causes one of the two parties to absorb some of the causes put forward by the third party, which is one of the reasons the system tends to centralize toward two parties.

To a degree, this has already happened. Some planks of Clinton's platform came directly from Sanders (I'm thinking of revamping college tuition and enhancing other social safety nets specifically).

Sanders is not a "third party", but a Democratic candidate. The effect unsuccessful major party campaigns have an on the major party despite failing to secure the nomination is a different issue than the effect of third parties on major parties.

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true. People act like the President has all the power. But that's now how our government work. Power is divided between all the three branches of the government. The President does not have all the power. Those that fear Trump will become a dictator does not understand the checks and balances of our government.

> Those that fear Trump will become a dictator does not understand the checks and balances of our government. Or they recognize that the checks and balances of our government are not magic, and that Trump being elected as the nominee of a major party would also reflect a shift in the political landscape which would be reflected, particularly, in the actions of other politicians in that party, especially in the other…

But isn't that what the voters wanted? A political shift to conservatism? Otherwise, the voters would have voted against Trump.

And a political shift doesn't mean Trump can become a dictator. It's still unconstitutional and Congress, no matter which side they are on, would never allow that. The well-armed people would never allow that. The armed military would never allow it. The armed police forces would never allow it. The well-regulated armed militia like the Minute Men would never allow it. The armed National Guard would never allow it.

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those that fear Trump will become a dictator does not understand the checks and balances of our government. Or they recognize that the checks and balances of our government are not magic, and that Trump being elected as the nominee of a major party would also reflect a shift in the political landscape which would be reflected, particularly, in the actions of other politicians in that party, especially in the other…

But isn't that what the voters wanted? A political shift to conservatism? Otherwise, the voters would have voted against Trump. And a political shift doesn't mean Trump can become a dictator. It's still unconstitutional and Congress, no matter which side they are on, would never allow that. The well-armed people would never allow that. The armed military would never allow it. The armed police forces would never allow…

> But isn't that what the voters wanted? A political shift to conservatism?

Yes, electing Trump means that a substantial portion of the voters wanted conservative authoritarianism.

> And a political shift doesn't mean Trump can become a dictator.

A shift in favor of the type of authoritarianism Trump proposes means that the structural mechanisms which permit one branch to check the actions of the others are unlikely to be used to prevent the institution of conservative authoritarianism.

> It's still unconstitutional and Congress, no matter which side they are on, would never allow that.

The Constitution, in practice, means what people in positions to act decide it means at the time; Congress allows things that are arguably unconstitutional all the time (sometimes later being checked in real time by other institutions, like the Supreme Court, sometimes not.)

> The armed military would never allow it.

This conclusion is based on...what?

> The armed military would never allow it.

This conclusion is based on...what?

> The well-regulated armed militia like the Minute Men would never allow it.

The idea that the "Minute Men" (presumably, referring to the Minuteman Project [0]) are "well-regulated" in any sense is amusing; the idea that they would, as an organized mass, oppose a conservative authoritarian dictatorship with a strong flavor of anti-immigrant white nationalism is even more amusing, and the idea that they would be a substantial check on a dictatorship in any case is perhaps the most amusing element of the inclusion of this claim in your post.

> The armed National Guard would never allow it.

This conclusion is based on...what?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minuteman_Project

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#236

Don't see why folk don't vote for Gary Johnson. He appeals to both Bernie Sanders voters and disenfranchised Republicans.

Gary Johnson stated that he would eliminate the Board of Education. That is the opposite position from Bernie Sanders' push to expand access to public education. Don't take that as an endorsement of the status quo; right now schools are locally funded, with wealthier districts providing higher quality experiences and fighting vehemently against out-of-district access to those resources. [0] However, the market-based solution that GJ and the Libertarians propose looks like a step backwards, furthering the stratification between rich and poor. A stronger national education system is necessary to enable sensible resource allocation and equitable access to quality schools.

0. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/t...

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like extending the turn-of-phrase "lesser of two evils" to subsequently label each candidate evil. I realize you're just continue with the phrase, but I bristle a little bit at the implication that major-party voters are voting in an evil. > If you are saying you have to choose between two bad candidates, you are implying you would choose a better option if one existed. Well there's a word missing here that c…

Your argument basically revolves around two points. One is that if you feel one candidate represents your views, then you need to vote for that candidate. That's absolutely, 100% fine and what you should do! I am speaking to the people who don't find their views fit with either candidate, or the negatives outweigh the positives so much, that they feel they are not given a real choice, which is not really true. The se…

> One is that if you feel one candidate represents your views, then you need to vote for that candidate.

That is not what I said, though I don't necessarily disagree. I am making the argument that voting is a self-interested exercise one way or the other; even voting for the "greater good" is an exercise in personal self-interest. So if you evaluate the two candidates who have any chance of winning and find a significant difference in how you and your peers' lives will be affected, then it's rational to vote for one of those candidates even if your views align better to a non-viable third-party candidate.

> The second point you are trying to make is saying that you should only vote for a viable candidate

No, that is again not what I am saying or have said. You're inferring something I'm not implying. Everyone should vote how they want to vote. What I don't like is the philosophical grandstanding about how if one doesn't really like either candidate that they should not vote or vote third-party, or that voting third-party or abstaining is some symbol of moral strength or "rightness."

It's easy to laud the nobility of voting third party or abstaining, futility of outcome or not, when you view the outcome of either viable candidate as basically equivalent. But they aren't equivalent, especially to certain subgroups of people. You specifically encouraged people not to vote for "evil candidates"; if you meant the word "evil" literally then fine, ignore this. But I don't think you did, and therefore I found your suggestion quite distasteful.

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honestly, I find it horrifying people feel the need to vote for the "least worst option". I find it disconcerting that one could use such hyperbolic language when voting for the "least worst" option is clearly the rational thing to do when there are direct, personal stakes from the *outcome. The ramifications to minorities by electing a very conservative Republican, or a pretend-Conservative who is a not-pretend ra…

I said it elsewhere so I am going to repost it: > But we all know that a third-party candidate is not going to win the election. A third party doesn't actually don't need to win. If a candidate does not receive a majority in the electoral college I believe the house / congress decides[1]. This would also pretty much destroy both parties - they will have to compromise and come closer to the middle. Basically, if a thi…

Fine, swap an impossible reality for a slightly-less-impossible reality. I feel just as confident saying "a third-party will not keep a candidate from winning the electoral college" as I do saying "a third-party candidate will not win the election." Third-party candidates do not siphon votes equally from the two major parties, they typically just make it easier for one to beat the other. I think it more likely that a third-party candidate could get as much as 30% of the popular vote without winning a single electoral vote.

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't that what the voters wanted? A political shift to conservatism? Otherwise, the voters would have voted against Trump. And a political shift doesn't mean Trump can become a dictator. It's still unconstitutional and Congress, no matter which side they are on, would never allow that. The well-armed people would never allow that. The armed military would never allow it. The armed police forces would never allow…

> But isn't that what the voters wanted? A political shift to conservatism? Yes, electing Trump means that a substantial portion of the voters wanted conservative authoritarianism. > And a political shift doesn't mean Trump can become a dictator. A shift in favor of the type of authoritarianism Trump proposes means that the structural mechanisms which permit one branch to check the actions of the others are unlikely…

Based on the idea that the all these groups still cares about the Constitution, democracy, and freedom.

Why would the military disregard the Constitution and start killing all the members of Congress just because Trump order them to? Though the military take orders from the President, the military has to uphold the Constitution. The President can't just order the military to disband Congress. The military would never do that. What would actually happen is that the military will instead arrest Trump and Congress will put Trump to trail to impeach him.

Again, the scenario where Trump become a dictator of the United States is never going to happen, because there is just too many groups and too much opposition to him.

There is no way the military will kill their own family members just to satisfy Trump's order.

Cops are NOT under the control of the federal government. Cops are under the control of the 50 states. Why would the 50 states give control of the police force to the President? Why would the 50 states just sit back and let Trump become a tyranny without fighting back? Why would cops go against their own cities, just so Trump can become a dictator?

Why would armed people joined up with Trump, especially arms Black people?

Why would the National Guard, who's duty is to protect the country, why would they go against the country just so Trump can become a dictator?

Again. Never gonna happen. There are too many groups who value democracy and freedom. And they will all oppose Trump if Trump decides to do something unconstitutional.

And you seem to be under the assumption that Trump supporters want a dictatorship. That's ridiculous. Trump supporters do not support a dictatorship. Trump supporters supports conservatism (aka, less government), which is the opposite of a dictatorship (total government control).

ALSO: Minutemen was just an example. Now-a-day, it's the NRA and other militia groups. And Minutemen actually refers to these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minutemen

Obviously, all these doesn't matter if everyone in the United States (that means, all the people, Congress, judges, police forces, etc. everyone) agrees that Trump should be a dictator and voted to turn the government into a dictator. But that's never gonna happen. People come from other countries into the United States because of its democracy. Why would they allow the government to turn into the same dictatorship they ran away from?

Re: Only 9% of America Chose Trump and Clinton as the Nominees

#240
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many people have chosen any Prime Minister of the UK? Its just their constituents that vote for them, so ~50000 people at most.

Membership choose the leader of a party and would have done so in the Tory party had Leadsom not dropped out.

My pint is that far less than 9% of the U.K. Chose any given prime minister or had the opportunity to.
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