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Why Economic Growth Will Fall

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141–150 of 176 posts

Re: Why Economic Growth Will Fall

#141
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't necessarily "blame" air-conditioning, it's just that in order to have AC you need to have a functional power distribution network that works at country level, which in turn requires having the initial capital for building it and then (I say most importantly) the necessary political and economical stability in place in order to raise the power distribution poles and, generally speaking, keeping the power distr…

Solar powered AC works just fine without a power distribution network and even tends to track production and demand. Heating on the other hand needs power in the darker parks of the year and needs fuel, much larger investments, or a power distribution network.

> Solar powered AC works just fine without a power distribution network and even tends to track production and demand

It's pretty hard close to impossible to scale that to large and dense communities. I know for sure that my Eastern-European city (population: ~1.8 million) has enough problems as it is when in the summer heat people turn the AC on at the same time. And we're a pretty ok country in terms of power distribution, I'd dare to say, we have hydro, nuclear, wind, and of course coal-based energy.

More to the point, I fail to see how you can provide power to an African city with a population with 2 million (let's say) only using solar. I know that there's a lot of sunny days in sub-Saharan Africa, but you need to have huge solar farms, for which you need political stability (so that people don't destroy said farms), you need power lines that would bring said solar-generated power to the city (which also requires political and economical stability), you need engineers (preferably locally-trained, that way the costs are manageable) in order to manage all that, you need to make it easy for people to pay for it all (again, this requires institutional stability) and so on and so forth. I'd say that there are still large swaths of the world where all these conditions don't apply.

I'd say people here on HN have a slightly skewed perspective on things. Most of them have grown up (and some of them still live) in American suburbia where having the possibility to install your own solar-power thingie is totally feasible. But American suburbia it's not the whole world.

Re: Why Economic Growth Will Fall

#142
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, that's a rough argument that needs fleshing out. Has the rigorous argument actually been made and is widely accepted by economists or is this just a meme that's accepted and repeated without much basis?

Adam Smith makes the argument well in A Wealth of Nations. Essentially, the only reason to invest is that you expect to earn something above on top of the risk. Then add that up over everybody in the system. They cannot all get something extra, unless there is growth. That growth is spread over everybody as return on investment. So, if there is no growth, then investment stops earning that extra, so there no point in…

The problem with this argument is that it mixes global effects and personal effects.

A person could have an appealing investment - for example building a more attractive fruit shop, with better customer service - taking all the sales from the current fruit shop .

But the GDP will remain the same.

Re: Why Economic Growth Will Fall

#143
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do realize that crop yields have grown exponentially as well? And I hope you also realize that "natural resources" is not an intrinsic property that some things have, it's just a way of describing things around us and for which we figured out use cases. It's like when someone says that a certain phenomenon is mysterious. That's not a description of the phenomenon itself, it just describes the state of knowledge o…

> You do realize that crop yields have grown exponentially as well? I do realize that, yes, only that nowadays people are not content with only eating bread and making it to the next day (which, I agree, we have enough resources for) but they instead want to have a "Western"-style of life, meaning middle or higher education, a car, some electronics (phones, TVs), air-conditioning etc. I'd say our planet doesn't have…

Yes. The ‘”Western”-style of life’ needs to change.

The intellectual conservatives are aware of this, and react negatively. They believe that nobody should tell them how to live their lives. Rejecting human-driven climate change is a way out of their cognitive dissonance.

As for me, I don’t have air conditioning, I don’t own a car, I reduce and reuse before recycling, I don’t buy on credit. (Electronics are astonishingly cheap these days, and once you filter out the noise, the Internet is a vast trove of knowledge.) Westerners might say that they believe in global warming and all that, but when it comes to the cost of lifestyle changes, they balk. I have the “advantage” that I started out cash-poor, so I didn’t grow up assuming that I would need anything.

Just something I was thinking about, related to gentrification, urbanization vs NIMBYs, and Elon Musk’s Tesla master plan.

Re: Why Economic Growth Will Fall

#144
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may invest to meet your basic needs. People used to build a house so they could be sheltered from them elements, not just to flip it.

But houses are already there. Especially when populations are shrinking.

Same goes for food, etc. my point was that not everything has to be for financial gain -- we have basic needs that are higher in the priority stack and will always be there.

About homes specifically - they have a life span too so they eventually have to be rebuilt or, as others have pointed out, maintained.

Re: Why Economic Growth Will Fall

#145

Considering we live in an infinite universe I do not see why economic growth can not continue even accelerate. Especially seeing that sometime this century we will get cheap space travel (getting there) and AI (getting there) and transition from fossil fuels to renewables and fusion (getting there) Tho' yes seeing how some of our best and brightest are working on how to serve more ads and how to get people spend thei…

Who says the universe is infinite?

Re: Why Economic Growth Will Fall

#146
Modern money is created by keystrokes[1]. We(the US) are no longer on the gold standard(a good thing). In order to have conditions for economic growth(say GDP growth) to occur aggregate income must increase. There are only two possible drivers: Government goes into debt or the private sector goes into debt where debt = spending more than ones income. If government policy makers were to use fiscal policy based economic models that paid closer attention to aggregate debt and aggregate income balances we could have much smoother business cycle and avoid deep recessions where the private sector wants to deleverage. The only thing to fear is inflation and we have never truly sniffed demand pull inflation in the US ever. The 80's was supply shock petroleum based inflation.

The Federal government needs to put its foot on the accelerator and not the brakes but the politicians don't know where the accelerator is.

[1] http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/03/where-did-the-fed...

Re: Why Economic Growth Will Fall

#147
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar powered AC works just fine without a power distribution network and even tends to track production and demand. Heating on the other hand needs power in the darker parks of the year and needs fuel, much larger investments, or a power distribution network.

> Solar powered AC works just fine without a power distribution network and even tends to track production and demand It's pretty hard close to impossible to scale that to large and dense communities. I know for sure that my Eastern-European city (population: ~1.8 million) has enough problems as it is when in the summer heat people turn the AC on at the same time. And we're a pretty ok country in terms of power distr…

> I know for sure that my Eastern-European city (population: ~1.8 million) has enough problems as it is when in the summer heat people turn the AC on at the same time.

I assume though that your city has a district heating system that works fairly reliably in the winter. If that is the case, why can't a district cooling system work just as well? All you need is a source of heat (which you already have, courtesy of district heating) and a heat sink--either cooling towers or a large body of water. If a society is prosperous enough to provide district heat, then it is prosperous enough to provide district cooling.

> in American suburbia where having the possibility to install your own solar-power thingie is totally feasible

It's actually easier in some ways to install solar panels on a residential building in sub-Saharan African country because regulatory restrictions either do not exist or can be circumvented with a wad of cash. A reasonably priced solar setup on a house or flat may not be able to satisfy its entire electrical load, but it can certainly provide enough energy for air conditioning.

Re: Why Economic Growth Will Fall

#148
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But houses are already there. Especially when populations are shrinking.

Same goes for food, etc. my point was that not everything has to be for financial gain -- we have basic needs that are higher in the priority stack and will always be there. About homes specifically - they have a life span too so they eventually have to be rebuilt or, as others have pointed out, maintained.

But who would want to own a company producing food, when owning cash would be a better investment?

Re: Why Economic Growth Will Fall

#149
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solar powered AC works just fine without a power distribution network and even tends to track production and demand. Heating on the other hand needs power in the darker parks of the year and needs fuel, much larger investments, or a power distribution network.

> Solar powered AC works just fine without a power distribution network and even tends to track production and demand It's pretty hard close to impossible to scale that to large and dense communities. I know for sure that my Eastern-European city (population: ~1.8 million) has enough problems as it is when in the summer heat people turn the AC on at the same time. And we're a pretty ok country in terms of power distr…

People are actually doing this right now due to terrible power distribution networks.

If you work out power needs, you can do AC with rooftop solar up to ~5 story buildings. Building past that point need real infrastructure. But, getting water and sewage is much harder to get working in a city that size than power.

A larger issue is solar has a relatively large upfront cost which is prohibitive in poor areas and ripe for theft.

The low end for AC is probably a 1kW system which can keep ~1,000+sf reasonably cool and runs some lights for well under 3,000$* in materials and the solar should last around 15-25 years. Costs will go up if you have a lot of people or equipment in that space, excess humidity, or want large temperature changes but this is just a baseline. Wiring up for more apartments is fairly simple, but your going to run out of roof for tall buildings.

*Costs without battery storage or grid tie in are far lower.

PS: Most people would want more than just AC and very low power lights. But, costs actually drop per watt as you scale, and installation does not take much in the way of training.

Re: Why Economic Growth Will Fall

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the technology itself can be used to create technology. That's the whole point. If we were talking about raw human creativity, we already surpassed that capability a long time ago. And it seems likely that we can get the technology to a place where it can improve itself with little enough human effort that growth can be kept up for longer than any of our life times.

Having technology recursively create technology does not lead to unlimited potential. Such infinite structures lead to stack overflow and do not exist in the natural world without limits.

But how many people actually think the potential is unlimited? Clearly there is a limit, but its likely far enough away from our current position that it doesn't particularly matter.
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