Ooh Ooh My Turn Why Lisp? (2008)

I can't really explain it but the whole variant/ADT pattern matching really forces to make you think of your problem domain as a specification or language (e.g. DSL). It is one of the reason why I think so many compilers are written in ML (that and the toolset is awesome for it).

On the other hand, if you don't know lisp, you should use what you know instead. it's just not worth learning a language and solving your startup's problems at the same time.

Let's talk about this fabled exchange between Norvig and McCarthy, where McCarthy asks if Python can gracefully manipulate code as data, and Norvig said no, and supposedly a thousand words were said in the ensuing silence.

Here's the thing; a thousand words weren't said. I don’t know what Tilton thinks was said there, but it certainly wasn’t a one sided silence in which only McCarthy’s side gets to smugly smirk as if it proves anything.

Let’s talk about code as data, shall we? What enables that? Of course, it’s the s-expressions and prefix notation. So let’s write a macro. But we won’t want to write a macro that simply sits at the beginning of an s-expression and takes in a bunch of arguments, because then we could just write a function. No, we want to do a transformation on the code that creates a domain-specific language, because that’s the power of macros, right?

So the very first thing you do with your macro powers, and pretty much the only useful thing you can do, is break s-expressions. Once the first macro is written you can no longer assume that inputs to macros will be s-expressions with the function at the beginning and arguments following. Every future macro must account for every previous macro. The more you use the capability to manipulate code as data gracefully, the less graceful it becomes.

And, in my opinion, far more damningly, macros make your program harder to reason about. Before macros, a reader could assume that the first thing in the s-expression was operating on everything else in the s-expression. But no longer. We can’t even assume that sub-s-expressions in the s-expression are evaluated first.

This isn’t a hypothetical problem. Common Lisp programmers spend a ton of time talking about how to write macros so that they’re not going to come back and bite you in the butt when they get used in an unexpected situation. And the reason is, nobody really knows how to do it.

So, with a great deal of respect for McCarthy based on his many other achievements, I have to say I don’t care about macros, and actually think we’re better off without them. First-class functions are a much more coherent, consumable way of using code-as-data.

Most of the features of Common Lisp I actually want are in other languages now. Garbage collection? REPLs? First-class functions? Higher-order functions? They’re all in other languages now. Python, for example has all those things.

And to be honest, other languages have done a lot better things with the functional programming aspects of Common Lisp. McCarthy gets credit for inventing a lot of stuff, but we don’t fly Wright-brothers style planes today and we shouldn’t use Common Lisp just because it was first to have those things. More sophisticated type systems make lambdas more powerful (and incidentally, a lot of the problems with macros can be seen as type problems).

People on this thread are claiming, “Learning Common Lisp turns you into a better programmer”. But I tend to think that learning functional programming is the part that people are referring to, and frankly, there are better languages in which to learn functional programming. Haskell, Standard ML, or OCaml would be a better choice.

And sure, there are other features that only Common Lisp has, but nobody is talking about those. Restarts? I’d love to see more people experimenting with those. Then again, Erlang has a way better threading model than anything else and much more sophisticated pattern matching. Scheme has call/cc. Standard ML has a powerful type system. Haskell has functional purity. Prolog has unification. A great many of these are more interesting than restarts.

I don’t hate Common Lisp; if nothing else, Common Lisp has a few very solid implementations out there and lots of existing libraries that make it a very useful tool. There are some programs which I wouldn’t consider writing in another language. I just don’t really think it’s the be-all and end-all of programming languages any more, and I’m kind of tired of the cult that has formed around it.

EDIT: s/Lisp/Common Lisp/g because not everyone takes “Lisp” to just mean “Common Lisp”.

I see how it can help write Neural Networks, AI, financial code, etc. But if you know Python,Ruby,PHP,Java and Lisp (well), why would you choose to write a blog, webstore, webmail client or social media* app (which probably is about 90% of what people actually do) in Lisp over the four three?

I'll tell you why I would chose the first four:

1. Large community. 2. Many more libraries. 3. Easier to hire.

*Except for (perhaps) a small spam-block/feed ai module

However, that's part of the process too as is learning when to use a hammer vs a wrench vs a screwdriver. There is the point in learning a new tool where everything looks like a nail. Yes, people will really mess things up by applying the wrong concepts but how else do we learn?