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Habits of highly mathematical people

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Re: Habits of highly mathematical people

#61

Mathematics promotes bad habits too. Example 1: paying too much attention to worst-case scenarios. When creating a mathematical proof you want to make sure that your conclusion holds in all possible scenarios allowed by your assumptions. In real life decision-making worst-case scenarios are really bad, really expensive to guard against but also really rare so often the best thing to do is to ignore them. You may find…

Concerning example 1: There are different concepts, such as average-case scenarios (for example modeled by expected value) or quantiles. Use them if this is what you want to model (but pay attention to the assumptions).

Concerning example 2: If you want some 'common sense' property to hold, why don't you specifiy it then?

Re: Habits of highly mathematical people

#63

Couldn't this also be titled "Habits of high rational people", with mathematics simply being one application? I'm not a mathematician and was miserable at math in school, but I apply these habits in the business world every day. They help me cut through a lot of crap that comes from other people's sloppy/lazy thinking. >Anyone who has gone through an undergraduate math education has known a person (or been that perso…

(I studied math and computer science. Walked out of a math Ph.D. program before starting one)

>I'm not a mathematician and was miserable at math in school, but I apply these habits in the business world every day. They help me cut through a lot of crap that comes from other people's sloppy/lazy thinking.

That's possible. The OP does not claim that the traits he listed apply if and only if you are a mathematician. It's certainly possible that you hone these skills without being mathematically inclined.

I do contest, however, that these habits apply to all "highly" rational people. I know plenty of people who are rational (or so are they deemed to be by their friends and colleagues) yet decidedly do not possess some of the listed habits, especially "scaling the ladder of abstraction" and "Being wrong often and admitting it".

On "being wrong often and admitting it," based on my experience, it's not that you become modest as a result of studying math. By studying math, you realize how prone your mind is to arriving at a faulty, unproven conclusion, and you learn to be more skeptical of your own thinking and become more at ease with being "wrong", allowing yourself to let your intellectual guard down.

Re: Habits of highly mathematical people

#64

Couldn't this also be titled "Habits of high rational people", with mathematics simply being one application? I'm not a mathematician and was miserable at math in school, but I apply these habits in the business world every day. They help me cut through a lot of crap that comes from other people's sloppy/lazy thinking. >Anyone who has gone through an undergraduate math education has known a person (or been that perso…

I do think there is something unique about training in the 'hard' analytic disciplines (math, computer science, physics, etc.). In particular, one learns to be wrong often, and that the result of one's hard-fought intellectual effort is often objectively incorrect. At the very least, math accelerates the process of discovering this, and so is a very good teacher of intellectual humility. The fact that you jumped to '…

That in my experience is a huge differentiating factor between analytical people and everyone else. Most people look on admitting failure as a great horribleness to be avoided at all costs. at my current corporate job I've often been looked at as insane for being open about such things.

Re: Habits of highly mathematical people

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think there is something unique about training in the 'hard' analytic disciplines (math, computer science, physics, etc.). In particular, one learns to be wrong often, and that the result of one's hard-fought intellectual effort is often objectively incorrect. At the very least, math accelerates the process of discovering this, and so is a very good teacher of intellectual humility. The fact that you jumped to '…

The "hard analytical disciplines" require understanding the fundamentals of whatever they work with, in order to process those fundamentals together into a useful effect. Getting meaning across via words is fundamentally the same process.

"Getting meaning across via words is fundamentally the same process."

-- Here, I think you've distilled the basic assumption of the op and I would claim someone with enough exposure to mathematics will know this claim is wrong.

Informal arguments may indeed be carefully and even exactly argued but they nearly always involve implicit emotional appeals, appeals to unstated common assumptions and definitions and so-forth.

Mathematics is different - the arguments are absolute, given the assumptions is can be demonstrated that the conclusions follow, even to the point of the proofs being mechanically verifiable. The reason someone making mathematically assumptions often has to admit their wrong is the arguments have follow a determined series of steps whereas someone with a strongly held, strongly articulated belief-system about the ordinary world can have a plausible answer to every objection but with some portion of those answers being appeals to commonly held beliefs in society.

Re: Habits of highly mathematical people

#66
post #63

Couldn't this also be titled "Habits of high rational people", with mathematics simply being one application? I'm not a mathematician and was miserable at math in school, but I apply these habits in the business world every day. They help me cut through a lot of crap that comes from other people's sloppy/lazy thinking. >Anyone who has gone through an undergraduate math education has known a person (or been that perso…

(I studied math and computer science. Walked out of a math Ph.D. program before starting one) >I'm not a mathematician and was miserable at math in school, but I apply these habits in the business world every day. They help me cut through a lot of crap that comes from other people's sloppy/lazy thinking. That's possible. The OP does not claim that the traits he listed apply if and only if you are a mathematician. It'…

On "being wrong often and admitting it," based on my experience, it's not that you become modest as a result of studying math. By studying math, you realize how prone your mind is to arriving at a faulty, unproven conclusion, and you learn to be more skeptical of your own thinking and become more at ease with being "wrong", allowing yourself to let your intellectual guard down. Indeed...math if anything promotes mental hygiene.

Re: Habits of highly mathematical people

#67
I'd like to propose another habit: the habitual use of certain idioms that are present in mathematical reasoning, in reasoning about other problems. I'm thinking of constructs like

- "if and only if", versus mere implication

- TFAE, as in, the following are equivalent ways of establishing some property

- Defining a relation, say R, between entities, and establishing properties about R, like transitivity.

- Defining notations, labels and symbols for certain quantities or relationships within a problem.

You typically first learn these idioms when doing proofs or reading lots of math and trying to summarize the ideas in it. Some of them are also aligned with the more abstract side of CS (unsurprisingly).

Someone who has had a little experience with these habits can make a real contribution to clear thinking. How many times have you stood at a whiteboard discussion where people repeatedly talk about "the properties that this object inherits from its parent" (or similar) -- but without just inventing a notation for that thing?

Re: Habits of highly mathematical people

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not a mathematician and was miserable at math in school Maths in school is not really like the maths that mathematicians do.

True, but if you're not good at school math, I believe there is little hope you can be good at the style of math that mathematicians do...

Math is taught so poorly that I am rather skeptical that this generalizes. I was fairly terrible at math ( although I scored well on tests and was able to struggle through it ) until I was in a junior year course that was used for discrete math, which went into proofs, and from that point on, it was simply no longer a problem.

But because I was specialized towards mathematics, I had been ... "inconvenienced" in favor of "easier" courses for the non-specialists. I think there's a severely unexamined premise in that state of affairs - but I have to ask - would others be as math-phobic if they really knew how it worked?

The head of the math/sci department literally said "Calculus keeps the dumb people outta med school" - and he was only partly kidding.

The question is - is rigor, even partial, informal rigor ( if that even makes any sense ) of value to everyone or not? It's obviously painful. But it really helps with goal of not being a sucker.

Re: Habits of highly mathematical people

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree with the claim that philosophers fit this description. As a mathematician, it often seems to me that 90% of philosophy is spent arguing about things with extremely loose definitions. As a result, you can argue from the same starting point and come to completely different conclusions (as separate philosophers often do), because the starting point was already self-contradictory for some interpretati…

Define "loose". Edit: Jokes aside, nothing is really "strictly-defined" as we would like it to be since definitions (even the most rudimentary ones) are based on -what we might call- statistical sets of observations. We come to the conclusion that an apple is a round object because we've seen an apple from multiple angles. Math accepts axioms, but those axioms are based on accepting definitions that are rudimentary o…

> definitions (even the most rudimentary ones) are based on -what we might call- statistical sets of observations

Mathematical definitions are usually abstractions of concrete observations, but they aren't the observations themselves. This is why coming up with a mathematical definition often requires more work than coming up with any other kind of definition.

> What is "1"? The idea of "1" can only be understood in terms of experience

1 is very rigorously defined: As a natural number, it's the successor of 0. As an integer, rational, real or complex number, it's the result of mapping the natural number 1 into Z, Q, R or C in a suitable way (compatible with the semiring structure of N).

Re: Habits of highly mathematical people

#70
post #18

Couldn't this also be titled "Habits of high rational people", with mathematics simply being one application? I'm not a mathematician and was miserable at math in school, but I apply these habits in the business world every day. They help me cut through a lot of crap that comes from other people's sloppy/lazy thinking. >Anyone who has gone through an undergraduate math education has known a person (or been that perso…

Nice spot on. The described qualities would also apply to philosophers, logicians, etc. I think a broader term would be, habits of highly "analytical" people.

Philosophy has some but not all attributes of this–for example, philosophical problems usually don't have the same level of objectivity and settledness, so you don't get the same 60-second level feedback loop of making a conjecture, being wrong, and refining it. That's not to say that philosophers never do something similar, just that it's not required as part of training.
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