America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems • Hacker News Board

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#31

Post by billbail » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #20

brudgers wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A parabolic antenna can create a narrow beam. That beam can be aimed at a satellite. It is only necessary for the antenna but not the submarine to be at the surface. The long usage history of sonobuoys and underwater decoys in submarine warfare seems reason to suppose that the use of similar sacrificial systems within the realm of possible tactics to further avoid detection of a submarine.

(1) A parabolic antenna is a huge radar target for anyone hunting submarines. (2) A parabolic antenna, or any other very directional antenna, requires a stable platform. Either it's on a huge inflatable raft, or the sub is rigidly attached. Either way, the operation will be noticed. (3) Sacrificial systems in submarine warfare are rare. They exist but, like aircraft launching flares, they draw attention and are there…

> (1) A parabolic antenna is a huge radar target for anyone hunting submarines.

I'm not sure if you are suggesting that an antenna would have to be detrimental to the radar cross-section of a submarine or if you are suggesting that you can intercept radio waves from a high directivity antenna.

For the former, directional antennas are on all forms of modern day stealth vehicles without compromising the radar cross-section of the vehicle (eg. modern jet fighters).

For the latter I have already seen successful systems such as MADL [1] which use highly directional radio waves to communicate between stealth fighter jets (something you would hope would go undetected). So I highly doubt that submarines couldn't have a similar system in place.

> (2) A parabolic antenna, or any other very directional antenna, requires a stable platform. Either it's on a huge inflatable raft, or the sub is rigidly attached. Either way, the operation will be noticed.

As shown in [1], directional radio waves can be sent from one jet fighter to another. Both of these are not stable platforms.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifunction_Advanced_Data_Li...

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#32

Post by ptha » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

nstj wrote: post #24

josh2600 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://mikesenese.com/DOIT/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Unders... ^undersea cables are typically made up of a central fiber line, which look like human hairs in a small tube, and a shell of insulation and copper. You need power to send the signal across the ocean floor and, as we do not generate electricity underwater, all of the current needs to be sent from one end to the other to power all of the repeaters along the…

> The nearer to the surface you get, the more protection—armour—you need to withstand potential disturbances from shipping. Trenches are dug and cables buried in shallow waters coming up onto shore. At greater depths, though, areas such as the West European Basin, which is almost three miles from the surface, there’s no need for armour, as merchant shipping poses no threat at all to cables on the seabed http://arstec…

Fishing trawlers are more likely to cause damage: By far the most common problems, however—accounting for about 60 percent of cut cable incidents—are dropped anchors and fishing nets.

The cables are on sea charts so this can be avoided, but that won't stop deliberate saboteurs. The strategy for safeguarding undersea cables has been described as “security through obscurity.”

http://www.wired.com/2015/10/undersea-cable-maps/

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#33

Post by chinathrow » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #29

sandworm101 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I'm sure they're smaller now. I'm betting not. Ivy Bells was back in the days of copper wires being tapped by external sensors placed atop undersea cables. Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. Normal procedure for such work involv…

I wouldn't put it beyond the capabilities of a nation state to tap fiber by putting a kink in it and processing the light that leaks out.

Hence the name PRISM.

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#34

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #29

sandworm101 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I'm sure they're smaller now. I'm betting not. Ivy Bells was back in the days of copper wires being tapped by external sensors placed atop undersea cables. Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. Normal procedure for such work involv…

I wouldn't put it beyond the capabilities of a nation state to tap fiber by putting a kink in it and processing the light that leaks out.

[deleted]

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#35

Post by coldtea » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

Jerry2 wrote: post #26

sandworm101 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I'm sure they're smaller now. I'm betting not. Ivy Bells was back in the days of copper wires being tapped by external sensors placed atop undersea cables. Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. Normal procedure for such work involv…

> Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. That's an excellent point but I think they have a way to lift the cable off the seabed and make a splice even though it's hard. NSA are masters of making the impossible work. What I can't figure…

>NSA are masters of making the impossible work.

Citation needed. And not Hollywood movies.

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#36

Post by gscott » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 5:46 PM UTC

Jerry2 wrote: post #26

sandworm101 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I'm sure they're smaller now. I'm betting not. Ivy Bells was back in the days of copper wires being tapped by external sensors placed atop undersea cables. Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. Normal procedure for such work involv…

> Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. That's an excellent point but I think they have a way to lift the cable off the seabed and make a splice even though it's hard. NSA are masters of making the impossible work. What I can't figure…

I believe the data goes through some friendly countries where we can get to it easier.

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#37

Post by Jerry2 » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 6:09 PM UTC

gscott wrote: post #36

Jerry2 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. That's an excellent point but I think they have a way to lift the cable off the seabed and make a splice even though it's hard. NSA are masters of making the impossible work. What I can't figure…

I believe the data goes through some friendly countries where we can get to it easier.

Do you think they lay another cable from the tap to some collection point or do they use radio waves? Or maybe they just record the data and then just collect it by a surface ship or a sub every month...

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#38

Post by packetslave » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 6:11 PM UTC

j1vms wrote: post #17

Which is amusing if you consider that a very long-distance, underwater cable which would be difficult to physically monitor (e.g. with cameras), would make a perfect use case for link encryption (at just above the physical layer). I do not see why that wouldn't be technically possible, unless someone cares to comment.

Because encrypting a 60Tb/sec data stream in real-time is computationally hard?

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#39

Post by jloughry » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 6:27 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #29

sandworm101 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> I'm sure they're smaller now. I'm betting not. Ivy Bells was back in the days of copper wires being tapped by external sensors placed atop undersea cables. Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. Normal procedure for such work involv…

I wouldn't put it beyond the capabilities of a nation state to tap fiber by putting a kink in it and processing the light that leaks out.

Non-invasive fibre optic tap technology has been commercially available since at least the early 1990s. I recall seeing ads for a hand-held device at that time. By carefully bending the fibre over a mandrel, a small amount of light can be made to leak out through the cladding past the angle of total internal reflection. No need to cut and splice the fibre.

The ads implied the device worked on jacketed fibres; I suppose that depends on the transparency of the jacket to 1064nm IR radiation.

Re: America uses stealthy submarines to hack other countries’ systems

#40

Post by jameshart » Sat, Jul 30, 2016, 6:38 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #16

Jerry2 wrote: post #7

If this sort of stuff interets you, I highly recommend the book "Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage". [0] It tells the story of Cold War espionage from the submarine warfare point of view. The book also covers "Operation Ivy Bells" which was a joint Navy/CIA/NSA mission whose objective was to place wire taps on Soviet underwater communication lines during the Cold War. [1] Sub placed…

>>> I'm sure they're smaller now. I'm betting not. Ivy Bells was back in the days of copper wires being tapped by external sensors placed atop undersea cables. Today's undersea cables are optical. You'd need to splice in, or at least open up a cable to get at the individual fibers to install similar taps. I cannot see how that would be done in the pressurized world of submarines. Normal procedure for such work involv…

Avoiding detection seems simple - just engineer a plausibly-deniable break in the cable some distance away from the place where you're working on the splice - a fishing trawler dragging the cable would do. Then before the cable operator can fix the break, you splice your tap into the inoperable cable.