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When tenure never comes

thewalrus.ca

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Re: When tenure never comes

#71

Post by Karrot_Kream »

pm90 wrote: post #55
ghaff wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all have to make choices between what we enjoy and have a passion for and what pays the bills. For many of us, there is a degree of overlap though likely not 100%. Our society is not so affluent that, if what you are genuinely excited about is medieval German poetry, you can reasonably expect to be supported with that passion unless you win a very specific academic track lottery (or have other sources of income).

I was thinking more about scientific research, such as funding for pure mathematics, theoretical computer science and such. These are skills that require years of dedicated effort to master the basics and reach a level of understanding that is rigorous enough to start making original contributions and yet offer very little financial compensation in industry. You are right in that a decision has to be made in what are…

Who decides where "funding for research into history" goes? In our STEM graduate program (a fairly prestigious one), it was pretty widely argued that you basically had to attach yourself to one of the big name grants to try and get funded.

I had a few friends who had some ideas but their professors weren't too happy with those. They found a way to incorporate some of the buzzwords for a giant grant our university had, pitched it to the professor, who submitted a grant application, and got them funded on the idea. Professor was happy (he had money), students were happy, but at the end of the day, the process was idiotic.

Re: When tenure never comes

#72

Post by mattkrause »

arcanus wrote: post #7

Saddening story. However, as an academic myself, some bits were misleading or odd: > funding regulations meant the grant couldn’t pay my salary as its lead researcher I've never, ever heard of anything like this occurring. The most I have seen are cost sharing pieces where a grant cannot more than a certain % of your salary. But these are often known upfront by the PI! > The two disclosed who had submitted a grant pr…

> I've never, ever heard of anything like this occurring.

There are some really odd interactions between funders' and universities' rules. Many places won't let non-permanent staff be the "lead researcher"/PI/whatever on grants, particularly if the grant or contract has specific "deliverables" or if the grant runs longer than than employee's contract.

These policies are probably well-intentioned--you can't really commit to an employee doing three years of research if they may not even be employed here next year--but they can lead to aggravating catch-22 situations where people could have the job if there was funding, but they can't get the funding because they don't have the job...

Re: When tenure never comes

#73

Post by smallnamespace »

alasdair_ wrote: post #41
smallnamespace wrote: post #27

My experience in finance was that 50% of quants (especially physics PhDs from the 90s, when all the Cold War-era funding dried up) were failed academics. Most of the rest were PhDs jumping straight to industry to avoid chasing tenure for years.

It depends on how you define "failed". Even the best academics may think it rational to make millions of dollars as a quant over a more conventional salary as an academic. I am not a "failed mcdonalds cashier" if I choose to quit and something that pays more, even if I started out in that particular field.

Maybe I'm being blunt, but my definition is that I spoke to them personally and they told me they would still be in academia if they had managed to land a job.

I asked, because at the time I was considering leaving to pursue a graduate degree myself.

Of course, I didn't literally speak to every quant in on the street, but I sampled from the ones who were around me. Most people were quite open about the situation but glad they had left; some were still very bitter.

Re: When tenure never comes

#74

Post by sevensor »

veddox wrote: post #69

As somebody looking to go into research (in a STEM field), this is a rather chilling article... And it's by far not the first time I have heard about this problem of getting a long-term job in academia. I'm just wondering: this guy was from Canada. What's the situation like in Europe? Especially Germany?

I'm not European, but I've heard the situation is hard there too, although not in the same way. The European academics I've met are, years after finishing the PhD, still quite dependent on their advisors for patronage. Those advisors likewise have to defer to their advisors. For decades. Until somebody dies. It's very feudal.

Re: When tenure never comes

#75

Post by quantumhobbit »

pmiller2 wrote: post #19

I consider myself fortunate that I realized most of what was talked about in this article was true while I was about halfway through grad school. The fundamental realization that given the size of my classes, where my peers were competition for any academic job, combined with the fact that I would literally have to wait for someone to die before I could get one of those jobs, was enough to knock me right off of the a…

Me too. Sort of. I think I realized this subconsciously before I was conscious of it. The result was two years of depression and anxiety before I got everything straight and quit.

I don't know if it was wasted time or not. It was a long time to not be in the workforce, but I learned a lot of skills while working on what turned out to be dead end research projects. I have a job now that requires merely a fraction of those skills. But maybe I wouldn't have gotten the job without my half phd. Or maybe I'd have a better job if I finished.

I'm still pretty frustrated by the fact that what was presented to me as a failsafe career path was anything but failsafe. This is pretty much the same problem with all of higher education and the current economy in miniature. Just as an undergrad degree no longer garuntees a good job a phd no longer garuntees a tenured job.

Re: When tenure never comes

#76

Post by ilarum »

Does HN have any advice for those looking to get a PhD because they love the field (Computer Science)? And then follow up the PhD with a job at one of the tech companies' research arm?

Re: When tenure never comes

#77

Post by quantumhobbit »

jerryhuang100 wrote: post #66

It's interesting to see this story on the front page at the same time with another one titled "We Should Not Accept Scientific Results That Have Not Been Repeated" . It's easy to solve both problems (killing two birds with one stone?) by implementing protocols of purging scientists with track records of non-repeatable results from "personal opinions" and fraudulent scholars gaming publishing systems, including titles…

And while you're at it, hire some of those underemployed post-docs to reproduce new results full time.

Re: When tenure never comes

#78

Post by cpitman »

yeukhon wrote: post #46
throw_away_777 wrote: post #9

Every student considering going to graduate school should read this article. Professors are very misinformed about how likely someone is to get tenure (most of them got it > 20 years ago, in a much better academic job market). This misinformation trickles down to students. The simple fact is that right now the average professor is graduating more than 10 phd students, only 1 of which can become a tenured professor at…

Yes. The market is very narrow for academia. I live in NYC. there are a handful of universes and colleges. If the large institutions are not hiring, you are left with the small fish normally just looking for teachers not professors. Also, to grow your career a healthy environment is collaboration. If you end up being a Professor at a small pond, your bet is external collaboration. If you don't like the small ponds, y…

> Should there be a policy to force retirement? Is it fair?

No, artificially creating jobs does not seem like the solution. We should be requiring all schools, for all degrees, publish relevant employment figures for that degree. And for doctorates, that should mean giving percentages that have tenure after X years and the percentage employed in jobs that required their doctorate.

Informing students lets them make the choice. If they are getting a PhD for the love of it, and don't care, power to them. But they should be given real data for their job prospects.

Re: When tenure never comes

#79

Post by [deleted] »

yeukhon wrote: post #46
throw_away_777 wrote: post #9

Every student considering going to graduate school should read this article. Professors are very misinformed about how likely someone is to get tenure (most of them got it > 20 years ago, in a much better academic job market). This misinformation trickles down to students. The simple fact is that right now the average professor is graduating more than 10 phd students, only 1 of which can become a tenured professor at…

Yes. The market is very narrow for academia. I live in NYC. there are a handful of universes and colleges. If the large institutions are not hiring, you are left with the small fish normally just looking for teachers not professors. Also, to grow your career a healthy environment is collaboration. If you end up being a Professor at a small pond, your bet is external collaboration. If you don't like the small ponds, y…

[deleted]

Re: When tenure never comes

#80

Post by gravypod »

Can someone please explain to my why tenure is needed? I've had some professors attempt to do it to me in the past and I never got it.

I maybe understand it for a humanities subject, but for STEM no chance for me.

I don't have tenure when it comes to working in the industry. If I'm a good enough employee I'll stay on, if I'm a bad enough employee I'll be replaced.

Tenure just seems to protect mediocrity. Can someone help paint this in a different light to me?

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