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Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

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Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#81

Post by mikecb »

nickff wrote: post #20
mikecb wrote: post #4

Coase, Pigou, all these ideas are fairly libertarian, just like other forms of property rights are, and externalities like pollution can be thought of as a form of trespass.

Pigouvianism is inherently intolerant and totalitarian, not libertarian, as it relies on imposing one's value judgements on others. Using a tax to force compliance rather than more draconian restrictions may be 'nicer', but is not Liberty.

Strict libertarianism recognizes central authorities as a role to prevent you from taking from me, which is what distinguishes it from anarchism. Libertarians should like pigou because it's the theoretical most efficient. Of course, auctioned cap and trade turns out to be the most efficient in the real world, because it turns out we're not good at estimating true prices.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#82

Post by fweespeech »

nickff wrote: post #80
fweespeech wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You may be committing a tort or trespass, depending on how you do it. And if you know its a common tort or trespass, it is simpler to tax that tort/trespass rather than require every individual to sue every other individual. > If you are trying to 'catch me out', your rhetoric won't convince me, nor is it likely to convince anyone els I don't really care. I just find your doublethink curious and wanted to confirm i…

What doublethink are you talking about? There is no internal inconsistency in my position, I just disagree with you.

I assumed:

A) You believe climate change and science by majority consensus on scientific facts exist.

B) You believe pollution is grounds for a lawsuit (which is a form of tax in that you are charged a fee for violating the social contract) which is enforced by society due to the damage it represents.

C) You believe carbon is pollution but is not grounds for a lawsuit (which is a form of tax in that you are charged a fee for violating the social contract) which is enforced by society due to the damage it represents.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#83

Post by nickff »

fweespeech wrote: post #82
nickff wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What doublethink are you talking about? There is no internal inconsistency in my position, I just disagree with you.

I assumed: A) You believe climate change and science by majority consensus on scientific facts exist. B) You believe pollution is grounds for a lawsuit (which is a form of tax in that you are charged a fee for violating the social contract) which is enforced by society due to the damage it represents. C) You believe carbon is pollution but is not grounds for a lawsuit (which is a form of tax in that you are charged a…

Voluntary agreements, legal settlements, and damages awards are not equivalent to taxes. For example, if I were to set your car on fire, and you sued me for that tort, any payment I made to you would be compensation, not a tax.

In addition, social contract theory is wrong, and I don't believe in it.[1]

Pollution may be grounds for a lawsuit, or it may not, it depends on the circumstances, just like any other tort or trespass.

[1] http://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil215/Huemer1.pdf

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#84

Post by fweespeech »

nickff wrote: post #83
fweespeech wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assumed: A) You believe climate change and science by majority consensus on scientific facts exist. B) You believe pollution is grounds for a lawsuit (which is a form of tax in that you are charged a fee for violating the social contract) which is enforced by society due to the damage it represents. C) You believe carbon is pollution but is not grounds for a lawsuit (which is a form of tax in that you are charged a…

Voluntary agreements, legal settlements, and damages awards are not equivalent to taxes. For example, if I were to set your car on fire, and you sued me for that tort, any payment I made to you would be compensation, not a tax. In addition, social contract theory is wrong, and I don't believe in it.[1] Pollution may be grounds for a lawsuit, or it may not, it depends on the circumstances, just like any other tort or…

Okay, so you just don't believe climate change exists.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#85

Post by nickff »

mikecb wrote: post #81
nickff wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigouvianism is inherently intolerant and totalitarian, not libertarian, as it relies on imposing one's value judgements on others. Using a tax to force compliance rather than more draconian restrictions may be 'nicer', but is not Liberty.

Strict libertarianism recognizes central authorities as a role to prevent you from taking from me, which is what distinguishes it from anarchism. Libertarians should like pigou because it's the theoretical most efficient. Of course, auctioned cap and trade turns out to be the most efficient in the real world, because it turns out we're not good at estimating true prices.

There is no such thing as 'strict libertarianism'; libertarianism is a spectrum (with one or more dimensions), with many internal divides including issues such as intellectual property. Depending on the libertarian you speak with, they may argue for a robust system of police, or a 'minarchist' government which only deals with external threats and trade issues.

Auctioned cap and trade is good at achieving two objectives: 1) a strict limit, and 2) political cronyism. Most people who suggest a carbon tax are in favor of instituting it, then adjusting based on the resulting emissions. We are no better at estimating the results of any given level of pollution or emissions than we are at forecasting supply and demand response to price changes.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#86

Post by throwaway2016a »

antisthenes wrote: post #77
throwaway2016a wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And those new regulations in favor of business would be vetoed under a Libertarian government. It works both ways. Also, Libertarians are in favor of regulating business if the business is depriving others of their rights. For example, their right to breath clean air. Well, many are. I believe enough are that pro-environmental policies would still get voted up in a Libertarian system.

> And those new regulations in favor of business would be vetoed under a Libertarian government. It works both ways. Wait, what? Vetoed by whom? > Also, Libertarians are in favor of regulating business if the business is depriving others of their rights. Who would be doing the regulating exactly? Wouldn't the regulations be seen as oppression by other businesses? Wouldn't they be challenged in a court of law, which i…

I think you are confusing Libertarian with Anarchist.

Libertarian does not preclude a president (who has a veto pen) and courts. In fact, courts are insanely critical to a Libertarian government in order to rule on cases where rights are violated and an executive branch is critical to make sure the court decisions are carried out.

Furthermore, contract law is also hugely important to Libertarians and the Government needs to be able to enforce those contracts when the individual cannot.

What a Libertarian would do is strike down all laws and government agencies that infringe on individual liberties. Especially laws that legislate morality and laws that legislate how individuals can spend their money and use their property. That means you can marry who you want, smoke what you want, and buy, sell, and contract with who you want as long as it does not infringe on other rights.

Other misconceptions:

- Libertarians as a whole do not want to eliminate tax. They want to replace income tax with flat tax and/or consumption tax and leave property tax up to the states. They only want to abolish the IRS because it is an inefficient organization, uses threat of force to collect taxes, and taxes do not need to be that complicated.

- Libertarians are not anti union. People should have a right to assemble. They are generally against people being forced to join a union against their will.

- Libertarians are not anti-government. They just feel the only valid role of government is to protect individual rights and defend our country from foreign invaders.

- Libertarians are not anti-environment. In fact Libertarians often see polluting the environment as infringing on other people rights and therefor something the government can intervene in.

A true Libertarian president would ask the following of every law:

- Does this protect people from having their rights infringed on by either other people, government, or companies: YES, pass this law

- If it does not meet the first test, does this infringe on other's right including their rights to do what they want with their own property/body: VETO

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#87

Post by nickff »

fweespeech wrote: post #84
nickff wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Voluntary agreements, legal settlements, and damages awards are not equivalent to taxes. For example, if I were to set your car on fire, and you sued me for that tort, any payment I made to you would be compensation, not a tax. In addition, social contract theory is wrong, and I don't believe in it.[1] Pollution may be grounds for a lawsuit, or it may not, it depends on the circumstances, just like any other tort or…

Okay, so you just don't believe climate change exists.

You've changed this post at least two times since I first tried to respond to it; I can't write a coherent response if you keep on deleting your post and re-writing it.

And I never said that I 'don't believe climate change exists'; as a matter of fact, I avoid the issue of consensus/reality entirely, as it has become a morass of tribal politics, where each side rejects the arguments of the other out of hand.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#88

Post by merpnderp »

dpark wrote: post #79
merpnderp wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If ancient cloud cover was closer to today’s levels, the increase in the cloud-cooling effect due to human pollution could also be smaller—which means that Earth was not warming up so much in response to increased greenhouse gases alone. In other words, Earth is less sensitive to greenhouse gases than previously thought, and it may warm up less in response to future carbon emissions, says Urs Baltensperger of the Pa…

Still not supporting your claim. > we don't know by how much This is a measurable (and measured) thing. We know exactly how much the Earth has already warmed. We do not know exactly how much it will warm in the future, but we know how much it has warmed. And the articles are also not nearly as pessimistic about how good our estimates are. You're acting as if we're flying blind just because our models are imperfect. >…

I don't think that word "exactly" means what you think it means.

And you're misrepresentating what I said. I didn't say our estimates were getting worse. I made it clear they would simply would be lower than before. And both articles I linked made it clear that the new estimates would be improved.

You're splitting hairs about nothing when you aren't representing what I said. Have a good day.

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#89

Post by throwaway2016a »

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #12
unprepare wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wouldnt the libertarian reaction to emissions be to sue the emitter for the lowered quality of air?

Why is anybody entitled to free unpolluted oxygen in libertopia?

I'm going to answer your flamebait with a real answer:

Because no one can own the air and you do not have a right to pollute something you do not own... further more if you pollute on land you do own you cannot guarantee the pollution will go to land owned by other people. And if you can guarantee that it will stay on your property, win win, we solved global warming!

Re: Elon Musk makes a libertarian argument for carbon tax

#90

Post by throwaway2016a »

unprepare wrote: post #9
vorotato wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume by arguing the personal liberty cost of emissions outweighs the personal liberty gained by tax reduction.

wouldnt the libertarian reaction to emissions be to sue the emitter for the lowered quality of air?

Most of the Libertarian's I know are moving away from this for the case of the environment for the various reasons listed and add one more, that in this country the court cannot make new laws.

But with that said too: the government itself can sue, it doesn't have to be people.

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