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Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

theguardian.com

31–40 of 93 posts

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#31
post #18

He really lost me with the first two paragraphs... Oh, and the title. The Brexit? Really? He's using the Brexit to launch into a soliloquy on the meaning of life? It's not clear to me that the Brexit had to do with wealth as much as it had to do with sovereignty. It's also not clear that the Brexit will have a negative long run impact on Britain's wealth. I know this sounds crazy to all the super smart international…

You seem to be confusing the Eurozone with the EU. The latter has its problems but is a basically sound institution, whereas the former was and remains a terrible idea without a fiscal union.

Sure, great experience traveling to Poland lately, being used to move in the Eurozone.

And I give up on balancing my books with my detailed expenses (cash, credit cards, ...) there. I just have a big “Poland expenses, 1250 €“ entry.

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#32
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[NB: Not an opinion on Brexit] To say that Brexit is democracy in action, you're suggesting that that alone makes it a good thing. Democracy in action has gotten us many terrible things as well. Democracy, in this form, is mob rule. If the mob is well-informed, it can go well. When the mob is not, it can go very badly.

>" If the mob is well-informed, it can go well. When the mob is not, it can go very badly. " That only applies if you have some sort of arbiter to decide whether or not the "mob" is informed. And if you do that, you might as well have a dictatorship, as the arbiter can decide which side s/he thinks is well informed. Or rather, they could decide that groups X,Y and Z are not informed, therefore they aren't allowed to…

That doesn't follow at all, and it isn't the consequence of my line of thinking. The arbiter can be time itself. An entity which makes a bad decision can see its bad decision played out over time by various measures. A failing economy, an increase in crime rates, an increase in poverty rates, an increase in some categories of diseases or diseases becoming pandemic or endemic that should be containable and treatable. A good decision, with measurably positive indicators, can similarly be discerned.

Of course, the vast majority of nation-level decisions will result in more of a mixed bag of positive and negative indicators. Take, for instance, tax cuts. They aren't uniformly good or bad. To a certain level, they free up capital for people to spend (a form of democratic decision making, I don't believe markets are magical like some, but they are generally efficient and effective). Beyond that level, though, they remove capital for the government to spend on things the people (or someone depending on the type of government) has decided it needs to be spent on and drives up national debt, or curtails national spending which may have other negative consequences (reduced average level of education of the populace, reduced access to essentials like medical care, poor preparation for emergencies, etc.).

What I actually want is what we (in the US) ostensibly have. A democratic (the -ic is important) republic with a form of representative democracy. Our votes determine who represents us. Those individuals are tasked with making decisions based on various calculi (risk analysis, economic models, legal constraints and obligations, etc.). I do not want anyone to lose their vote, nor does my comment imply that. Universal suffrage is a good thing, giving everyone an opportunity, ignorant or informed, to have a voice. [EDIT: What I do not want is mob rule. There's a reason the legislature in the US was divided into the Senate and the House. The House offered a risk of mob rule, but the great opportunity for the people's voices to be heard. The Senate balanced this by giving unbalanced-by-population representation to each state. This acts as a measure of restraint against mob rule.]

[Sidenote: Can we abandon "s/he" and similar constructs? If the intention is to be more gender-equitable, switch to truly gender neutral terms like the singular-they, or one. S/he remains constrained to the binary system that, presently, is becoming outmoded. Not only that, but it's an awkward construct that is not easily voiced. An article posted here, I think, earlier in the week had attempted another sort of gender-balanced approach by alternating he and she in each paragraph while speaking about theoretical persons. The problem was this: the post was about a singular, theoretical person and it appeared as if the person was swapping genders each paragraph. What's more, the story didn't make sense because it was technically about two different people when it was intended to be about one.]

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#34
post #5

The article asks "can possessions stand in the way of fulfillment?" Experience tells me the answer there is certainly yes, they can and often do. I think achieving a cultural shift away from the accumulation of possessions is achievable-- as cities get more dense, as travel becomes more regular, safe and affordable-- and in some sections of culture this is happening already. The article also asks though if we can tru…

>The article asks "can possessions stand in the way of fulfillment?" Experience tells me the answer there is certainly yes, they can and often do.

While this can be true, and I know a few people who seem oddly compelled to accumulate more at the detriment of the rest of their lives, I find that it is far more common that the lack of wealth stands in the way of fulfillment.

On a different point, I see the market as an efficient way to find the best custodians for things. Or, at least, that is the ideal. The real market is far more complicated, of course.

Inequality is inevitable, and probably desirable. I only have a problem with inequality when those that have more can exploit those that have less. Contrary to common wisdom which is that people must be compelled through desperation to work (an extension of outdated history), I think it is possible for those that have less to have less command of wealth yet still not be completely desperate. Desperation and exploitation are not core features of a free market, Capitalistic system. In fact, I think they are a drag on Capitalism and the free market.

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#35
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be confusing the Eurozone with the EU. The latter has its problems but is a basically sound institution, whereas the former was and remains a terrible idea without a fiscal union.

Sure, great experience traveling to Poland lately, being used to move in the Eurozone. And I give up on balancing my books with my detailed expenses (cash, credit cards, ...) there. I just have a big “Poland expenses, 1250 €“ entry.

So you are suggesting that Poland should give up its financial stability (like being pretty much only EU country which did not suffer recession during 2008 financial crisis) and join Eurozone just to help you avoid small inconvenience with reimbursing business trip in foreign currency?

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#37

He really lost me with the first two paragraphs... Oh, and the title. The Brexit? Really? He's using the Brexit to launch into a soliloquy on the meaning of life? It's not clear to me that the Brexit had to do with wealth as much as it had to do with sovereignty. It's also not clear that the Brexit will have a negative long run impact on Britain's wealth. I know this sounds crazy to all the super smart international…

It seems to me that the Brexit is going to hurt mostly because the EU is going to want to make it hurt to discourage more members from leaving.

That said, GB was never on the Euro so their transition is a lot less traumatic than it would be for most EU members.

The Euro has always had some dubious aspects, like tying everybody to the same currency but letting them set their monetary policy on a per-country basis. Problems like the Greek crisis are almost inevitable in a setup like this.

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#38

Let me guess -- You support Drumpf and you call yourself a "race realist". Heh.

Ad hominem does nothing to rebut these arguments. I also disagree, but would much rather see an actual refutation.

If you support Brexit you are either racist or make common cause with racists.

drops mic

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#39
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, great experience traveling to Poland lately, being used to move in the Eurozone. And I give up on balancing my books with my detailed expenses (cash, credit cards, ...) there. I just have a big “Poland expenses, 1250 €“ entry.

So you are suggesting that Poland should give up its financial stability (like being pretty much only EU country which did not suffer recession during 2008 financial crisis) and join Eurozone just to help you avoid small inconvenience with reimbursing business trip in foreign currency?

The Eurozone is suffering. All economic areas have up and downs. Being in a shared monerary union, you sacrifize some advantages for others: we compromise - I know, strange word.

We are building a stable, long term monetary union. We are learning, we are improving and we will have a strong currency going forward.

Next time another economy area is in distress, as it will unavoidably happen, remember about our crisis, and how we together saw it through.

Nowadays it is fashionable to attack the Euro. When the crisis is mastered, all know-it-alls will praise it. We do not need to care for the ones or the others. We do our thing.

And yes, the most practical consequence for induvidual citizens is that I do not care about currencies, at all. Except when I travel to Poland.

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#40

I actually don't understand why Brexit should necessary be bad for UK. Switzerland is doing very well outside of EU despite it's literally surrounded by EU members. Of course, there is a risk that UK won't do as good as Switzerland does but it's only risk, it's not established fact yet. Regarding article itself ... well, it's The Guardian so it's very predictable what they will write about wealth. Regarding author, i…

Switzerland does have access to the EU single market and implements many features of EU law, such as free movement of people. The UK might end up with a similar arrangement eventually, but if we adopt most of the EU principles but without any political influence I fail to see what the point was. Even if we manage to find a satisfactory solution, we will have to go through a lot of pain to get there, and we were already doing very well as a member of the EU.
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