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Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

theguardian.com

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Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#21

Post by zo1 »

sevenless wrote: post #14
hackaflocka wrote: post #7

I don't understand the reaction to Brexit. It was democracy in action! These things happen, and it's alright when they do! There are so many countries that are not in the EU. Are they all doomed?

Democracy is not a whitewash that makes actions good, sensible or moral.

I think they're rather pointing out the fact that democracy is a-priori taken seriously (good, sensible, and moral as you put it) until it votes-in an action that some people don't like.

You never hear the same types of things being told of normal presidential and governmental elections as we did for the brexit outcome. I.e. "this side used fear mongering of X" and "side B used promises of Y to manipulate the public" and let's not forget "the conservative elder voting block was voting against the youth".

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#22

Post by sevenless »

zo1 wrote: post #21
sevenless wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is not a whitewash that makes actions good, sensible or moral.

I think they're rather pointing out the fact that democracy is a-priori taken seriously (good, sensible, and moral as you put it) until it votes-in an action that some people don't like. You never hear the same types of things being told of normal presidential and governmental elections as we did for the brexit outcome. I.e. "this side used fear mongering of X" and "side B used promises of Y to manipulate the public"…

> You never hear the same types of things being told of normal presidential and governmental elections as we did for the brexit outcome. I.e. "this side used fear mongering of X" and "side B used promises of Y to manipulate the public"

Come on, now. People say this all the time.

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#23

Post by gonvaled »

Mendenhall wrote: post #8

It seems his premise is "Rethink wealth so you feel better about giving your money to others" I find it well meaning but naive to human nature. It might as well have been called "Ignore human nature". Wealth stems from "taking" resources and wanting to survive. We are in a petri dish of limited resources, with more and more people consuming. Good luck with that math.

Ideas, which can improve the amount of resources (virtually without limits, by say exploiting the asteroid belt), are not limited. That is, ideas can hugely increase the size of your petri dish.

What I dont know is if human nature can be contained to avoid growing the population continously above the carrying capacity, as we have been doing for the last 200 thousand years (or was that updated to 2 million?)

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#24

Post by zo1 »

Jtsummers wrote: post #16
hackaflocka wrote: post #7

I don't understand the reaction to Brexit. It was democracy in action! These things happen, and it's alright when they do! There are so many countries that are not in the EU. Are they all doomed?

[NB: Not an opinion on Brexit] To say that Brexit is democracy in action, you're suggesting that that alone makes it a good thing. Democracy in action has gotten us many terrible things as well. Democracy, in this form, is mob rule. If the mob is well-informed, it can go well. When the mob is not, it can go very badly.

>"If the mob is well-informed, it can go well. When the mob is not, it can go very badly."

That only applies if you have some sort of arbiter to decide whether or not the "mob" is informed. And if you do that, you might as well have a dictatorship, as the arbiter can decide which side s/he thinks is well informed. Or rather, they could decide that groups X,Y and Z are not informed, therefore they aren't allowed to vote.

I know you may not be suggesting that explicitly, but that is the type of thing that I would argue follows from your line of thinking.

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#25

Post by zwischenzug »

Mendenhall wrote: post #8

It seems his premise is "Rethink wealth so you feel better about giving your money to others" I find it well meaning but naive to human nature. It might as well have been called "Ignore human nature". Wealth stems from "taking" resources and wanting to survive. We are in a petri dish of limited resources, with more and more people consuming. Good luck with that math.

It's also human nature to share. cf Kropotkin and studies of altruism in human beings. Wealth, as a concept is very much up for grabs. Is it accumulation of resources, the increase of security of resources, the fulfilment of psychological desires, the control of psychological desires, the stable passing on of genes?

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#26

Post by hal9000xp »

I actually don't understand why Brexit should necessary be bad for UK. Switzerland is doing very well outside of EU despite it's literally surrounded by EU members. Of course, there is a risk that UK won't do as good as Switzerland does but it's only risk, it's not established fact yet.

Regarding article itself ... well, it's The Guardian so it's very predictable what they will write about wealth.

Regarding author, it's the same, respected and famous scientist is longstanding Labour Party supporter. With all due respect to mister Hawking, I won't buy socialism in any possible form and any interpretation even from world famous scientist.

I would prefer to enjoy to read his great science books.

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#27

Post by FreedomToCreate »

elgabogringo wrote: post #11

He really lost me with the first two paragraphs... Oh, and the title. The Brexit? Really? He's using the Brexit to launch into a soliloquy on the meaning of life? It's not clear to me that the Brexit had to do with wealth as much as it had to do with sovereignty. It's also not clear that the Brexit will have a negative long run impact on Britain's wealth. I know this sounds crazy to all the super smart international…

Hawkings is pointing out how the EU allowed for collaboration and money to flow from multiple sources, while now Britain will lose access to many of those. He also draws attention to how a mindset of "Britains wealth is being taken by foreigners", even though it isn't, was a driving force for many to vote for Brexit. The need for sorveignty arose from people belief that the wealth of Britain, be it economic and cultural, was being taken by foreigners.

From this perspective, Hawkings makes a good point to consider for anyone who is trying to better understand Brexit and its repercussions.

Also not related to the article, but the EU has kept Europe out of war for the longest period of time and was one reason for the unification.

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#28

Post by gonvaled »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #4

There will always be people who take great pleasure and submit extraordinary effort to accumulate massive wealth. These efforts cannot be ignored in the prosperous society we have today. We take refrigeration and electricity and indoor plumbing - unheard of for the Founding Fathers - for granted, and perceive those without it as living in extreme poverty. It is only when the pursuit of individual prosperity comes at…

Poverty is a relative term: somebody without a shirt is poor because nearly everybody has a shirt, not because shirts are absolutely necessary.

Edit: not sure why I am being downvoted. Take the poorest man on Earth today; he is richer than most men alive 20 thousand years ago. I would argue that he would conquer any ancient society.

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#29

Post by sevenless »

zo1 wrote: post #24
Jtsummers wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[NB: Not an opinion on Brexit] To say that Brexit is democracy in action, you're suggesting that that alone makes it a good thing. Democracy in action has gotten us many terrible things as well. Democracy, in this form, is mob rule. If the mob is well-informed, it can go well. When the mob is not, it can go very badly.

>" If the mob is well-informed, it can go well. When the mob is not, it can go very badly. " That only applies if you have some sort of arbiter to decide whether or not the "mob" is informed. And if you do that, you might as well have a dictatorship, as the arbiter can decide which side s/he thinks is well informed. Or rather, they could decide that groups X,Y and Z are not informed, therefore they aren't allowed to…

Are you saying that objective fact and truth is equivalent to a dictatorship?

Are anti-vaxxers living in a dictatorship because we don't give their claims equal weight to those of doctors and scientists?

Re: Hawking: We need to rethink our attitude towards wealth

#30

Post by gonvaled »

hackaflocka wrote: post #7

I don't understand the reaction to Brexit. It was democracy in action! These things happen, and it's alright when they do! There are so many countries that are not in the EU. Are they all doomed?

They are not doomed: the argument is that they would be better off in the EU. And that Britain would be worse off outside. Not that it would be a poor country; it would still be one of the richest countries on Earth. Just a bit poorer.

That is the theory; we'll see what happens.

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