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We Should Not Accept Scientific Results That Have Not Been Repeated

nautil.us

161–170 of 282 posts

Re: We Should Not Accept Scientific Results That Have Not Been Repeated

#161
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, if I have a summer intern who is paid by the government, and helps on my otherwise non-government-funded project, then is that enough to trigger the requirement? Or, if I use a government facility, like a supercomputing center, then that also trigger the release requirement? Even if no money changes hands? What about a government network? It sounds very tricky. If I get a government grant to work on a project, an…

No, it isn't. You calculate the fair market value of the public resources you used, and subtract what you paid the public for them. If it is positive, you have a publicly-supported project. So if you use that government-paid intern for several hours, you ought to pay their agency or department $7.25 for each. You pay for what you use, and there's no problem. If you work in a government-built facility, and you pay ren…

> "You calculate the fair market value of the public resources you used"

Which is very hard for things with no market.

I use government libraries. They are free to me. What is the fair market value of that? There are private and subscription libraries, so it's not like no market exists.

What is the fair market value of time on Hubble?

> "if you use that government-paid intern for several hours ... You pay for what you use"

I think you mean $0, not the $7.25 you estimated. Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, an internship is "for the benefit of the intern", not the company. An internship is not supposed to improve the bottom line of a company. An intern may even get in the way, and cause negative value.

And that's my point. The public gains more than can easily be counted by simple, direct market valuation. What is the worth of having students with industrial training? What is the worth of having broad public access to the literature?

Or, for a more real-world case, companies might not be interested in tropical disease research because the revenue won't justify the development costs. But the US military would like to be able to send troops to places with an endemic tropical disease, so they want some way to be able to prevent or treat the disease. The US foreign diplomatic policy would also like the good-will of those countries. The US could, by subsidizing tropical disease research, tilt the "fair market value" so is more weighted towards its military and diplomatic policy goals.

That assumes that part of the corporate revenue comes from subsidy, and part comes from being able to sell the drug on the market. But now, if part of the revenue comes from the government, the company cannot seek patent protection. This reduces the profit expectation, which means the government will need to subsidize the project even more to get a company to be interested in the effort.

Re: We Should Not Accept Scientific Results That Have Not Been Repeated

#162
post #154
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> conclusions drawn from the claims which have no other support or means of verification should not be accepted and would not be accepted I disagree. In all cases , even with repeated experiments, the claims are only tentatively accepted. The confirmation by others of Blondlot's N-rays didn't mean they were real, only that stronger evidence would be needed to disprove the conclusions of the earlier observations. Astr…

> But under current medical practices, if a drug trial saw this sort of effectiveness, the trial would be stopped and everyone in the trial offered the treatment. To do otherwise is immoral. As would repeating the same trial. Then perhaps current medical practices should change. The benefits to those who were previously given the placebo should be balanced against the probability that the observed outcomes may not oc…

Are you for real? You would sacrifice people upon the alter of reproducibility?

Down that path lies atrocities. The system was put into place to prevent repeats of horrors like the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male".

Re: We Should Not Accept Scientific Results That Have Not Been Repeated

#163
post #59

Define repetition. It's not as simple as that, for all sciences - once again an article on repeatability seems to have focused on medicinal drug research (it's usually that or psychology), and labelled the entire "Scientific community" as 'rampant' with " statistical, technical, and psychological biases". How about, Physics? The LHC has only been built once - it is the only accelerator we have that has seen the Higgs…

The difference is maths. E.g. Einstein proved his theory of gravity mathematically, THEN it was proved via empirical observation.

We don't have a way to mathematically prove a drug for depression a psychological phenomena.

Re: We Should Not Accept Scientific Results That Have Not Been Repeated

#164
post #128

> Nowadays there's a certain danger of the same thing happening (not repeating experiments), even in the famous field of physics. I was shocked to hear of an experiment done at the big accelerator at the National Accelerator Laboratory, where a person used deuterium. In order to compare his heavy hydrogen results to what might happen with light hydrogen, he had to use data from someone else's experiment on light, hyd…

Current top comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12186295 , specifically rebutted 30 years before the comment was written.

Re: We Should Not Accept Scientific Results That Have Not Been Repeated

#165
post #162
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But under current medical practices, if a drug trial saw this sort of effectiveness, the trial would be stopped and everyone in the trial offered the treatment. To do otherwise is immoral. As would repeating the same trial. Then perhaps current medical practices should change. The benefits to those who were previously given the placebo should be balanced against the probability that the observed outcomes may not oc…

Are you for real? You would sacrifice people upon the alter of reproducibility? Down that path lies atrocities. The system was put into place to prevent repeats of horrors like the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male".

I'd rather not sacrifice people on the altar of a single study, no matter how significant the results. Down that path lies atrocities, too, albeit of a quieter sort.

Re: We Should Not Accept Scientific Results That Have Not Been Repeated

#167
post #59

Define repetition. It's not as simple as that, for all sciences - once again an article on repeatability seems to have focused on medicinal drug research (it's usually that or psychology), and labelled the entire "Scientific community" as 'rampant' with " statistical, technical, and psychological biases". How about, Physics? The LHC has only been built once - it is the only accelerator we have that has seen the Higgs…

>The confirmation between ATLAS and CMS could be interpreted as merely internal cross-referencing

Why? ATLAS and CMS are different detectors operated by different teams.

Re: We Should Not Accept Scientific Results That Have Not Been Repeated

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but in medicine, what is the practical alternative? how do you incorporate these findings? ignore them? if so, it's probably bad for your patients. the only thing worse than a single-study finding is a zero-study finding.

I was simply suggesting what we all learn in medical school and residency: to appropriately evaluate clinical studies. Just don't think most doctors do. Let me give you an example of how I approach things. The guidelines for acute pancreatitis recommend using a fluid called LR instead of NS for volume resuscitation. This is based on an single study that included 10 patients and simply noted slightly better lab number…

And the root of the word "probably" is latin probare meaning "to test". As in, you have to have some empirical basis for your belief in the likelihood of something.

Re: We Should Not Accept Scientific Results That Have Not Been Repeated

#169
Cue all the people justifying their pseudoscientific behavior. If it is too expensive to fund twice, it shouldn't be funded once. If that means the LHC and LIGO wouldn't get done, then we should have only funded one of them. We need to remain skeptical of those results until replicated by a new team. Even one replication is pretty weak...

Independent replications of experiment (and the corresponding independent reports of observations) are a crucial part of the scientific method, no matter how much you wish it wasn't. Nature doesn't care if it is inconvenient for you to discover her secrets, or that it is more difficult for you to hype up your findings to the unsuspecting public.

Re: We Should Not Accept Scientific Results That Have Not Been Repeated

#170
With science, the profession and the product are distinctly different, and we are failing to hold the profession to the standards of the product. Science, the profession, is political, incentive driven, and circumstantial. Scientists need to get paid. Science, the product, is apolitical, existential, and universal. So those who love and believe in the products of science may wish upon themselves to be these things also. I know I do. Except, sometimes it just ins't practical, or even possible.

But repeatability actually matters more professionally. Scientifically speaking, if the science is bad it just won't work when others try to make use of it. All bad science will be identified or corrected as we try and make use of it and convert it into new technology. Technology mandates repeatability. So those scientists who fail to produce repeatable science, regardless of how professionally successful they may be, will inevitably fail to produce any new technology or medicine, and vice versa.

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