Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status • Hacker News Board

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#101

Post by kaitai » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 2:56 AM UTC

I find the correlation-causation discussion a bit troubling.

What if, for instance, men who want a divorce manage to quit working/become involuntarily unemployed because they don't want their incomes going toward alimony for a spouse they now dislike?

Or what if it's like those initial studies linking low body weight with high mortality, which we found were mixing together healthy skinny people and people who'd lost a lot of weight due to cancer? Maybe men who are involuntarily unemployed are drawn from a mix of guys with bad luck and guys with traits that cause them to be less stably employed?

How do these decisions fluctuate or not with the national unemployment rate?

It seems like this is an interesting exploratory study but not yet very specific.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#102

Post by kaitai » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 2:59 AM UTC

blawson wrote: post #82

foxylad wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question, but I'm not sure why you included the gender distinction. Do you think divorce is less devastating for women, or that risk of divorce is more of a factor for men?

I think they mean how resources are split after a divorce, where courts are viewed as being more favourable to women. For example I think women are more likely to keep children, whereas the men will pay alimony to support them. If there are no kids the resource split might be more equitable. [edit] Also see further down: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12184148

Courts are more favorable to women in some ways, but the economic consequences are generally worse for women. "Worse" and "better" all depends on what endpoint you're looking at, just like all those studies on cholesterol (do you want to lower cholesterol or not die from heart problems?) -- do you want the alimony now or the overall financial health?

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#103

Post by notacoward » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 2:59 AM UTC

sverige wrote: post #55

I have personally witnessed couples where the cause of the job loss was marital stress. Husband's job performance suffered because of things going on at home, company decides to cut back jobs, stressed husband is on the low end of performance and gets cut. It just adds to the mess at that point. Often the wife felt that the husband was less than he was before without his job, and ditched him. I've also seen men in th…

Extrapolating from that correlation!=causation theme, now I wonder if that "thing that happened in 1975" was something affecting people's marriages or something within those marriages affecting everything else.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#104

Post by home_boi » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:01 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #100

enave wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the MRM seems to be not limited to trying to make things better for men but also endless attacking women ?? Are you implying that feminism is limited to just helping women? Surely you're not that naive. If we were to play a game where each time you post a crazy thing an MRA has said, I have to post two crazy things feminists have said, I'll win that game. I'll win it easily. I'll win it with politicians and academi…

The points that have merit constitute the bulk of the message coming from people self-identifying as feminists. Sure, there's all kind of weird stuff - TERFs, separatist and even supremacist feminists etc - but they're a minority compared to the mainstream. On the other hand, when looking at the MRA scene (again, going by self-identification of the speakers), the mainstream seems to consist of "incels", red pillers,…

What "message" are you talking about?

I've associated feminism with "women make $0.67 for every dollar that a man makes for the same job, working the same hours" and equal gender ratio over equal opportunity.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#105

Post by kaitai » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:04 AM UTC

enave wrote: post #69

bruceb wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say you are getting down voted because the MRM seems to be not limited to trying to make things better for men but also endless attacking women and creating stawman(woman) feminism. Men do face many challenges. Some men have dangerous jobs which they die providing for society (fishing, war, etc). This doesn't get enough acknowledgement. But one doesn't have to be a total jerk to make this point and tear other…

> the MRM seems to be not limited to trying to make things better for men but also endless attacking women ?? Are you implying that feminism is limited to just helping women? Surely you're not that naive. If we were to play a game where each time you post a crazy thing an MRA has said, I have to post two crazy things feminists have said, I'll win that game. I'll win it easily. I'll win it with politicians and academi…

Can you give some links where MRM people support women? Genuinely curious.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#106

Post by anonbiocoward » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:05 AM UTC

acangiano wrote: post #26

ethanbond wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine there are a lot factors. Time spent together skyrocketing, financial instability causing stress, and the fact that a lot of men tie their identity to their employment so strongly. Becoming unemployed is immensely turbulent in pretty much every way.

> a lot of men tie their identity to their employment so strongly I wonder if the other side of the coin isn't that wives tend to respect their husbands less when these earn less than they do. It could be because it violates a social norm caused by society's gender role expectations. Research found that even employed men who earn a bit less than their wives are affected by higher divorce rate. So we can cast these me…

> it violates a social norm

This story hit me pretty hard. While I was in medical school, my wife's family, especially her mother, routinely encouraged her to divorce me.

We had two small kids, and I had gone on job interviews and seen the offers I was getting without a graduate degree, despite a BS in physics and 7 years of experience. It was obvious to everyone that medical school was the right course of action in the long term but it would be hard.

I didn't realize it would get harder when her family started jumping on any opportunity to point out my "temporary financial embarrassment". On a day-to-day basis, she was working 40 hours a week and while med school was paid for, and I had a small stipend, her paycheck was better. And cognitively, she understood that. But her brothers and mother, and eventually her father told her to "get rid of him".

We stuck it out. They wonder why we don't fly across country to visit them much...

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#107

Post by reefoctopus » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:06 AM UTC

zepolen wrote: post #99

lmmlzxx wrote: post #91

I'm not working right now and my wife is supporting me. To be brief, I'm taking time to be healthier mentally and my wife can see that I'm making a concerted effort. I let her know frequently how much I appreciate it, and I'm also accomplishing a lot and putting myself in a position to be successful again in the near future. I've supported her financially at times in the past as well. Because of this, we're actually…

constantly using?

He is likely referring to hard drugs of some sort. "Using" connotes methamphetamines or heroin.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#108

Post by lmmlzxx » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:09 AM UTC

zepolen wrote: post #99

lmmlzxx wrote: post #91

I'm not working right now and my wife is supporting me. To be brief, I'm taking time to be healthier mentally and my wife can see that I'm making a concerted effort. I let her know frequently how much I appreciate it, and I'm also accomplishing a lot and putting myself in a position to be successful again in the near future. I've supported her financially at times in the past as well. Because of this, we're actually…

constantly using?

Constantly using various recreational drugs. It's actually not something my wife has a problem with at all, and even recently she encouraged me to keep doing so. The decision to stop was my own. There have been many extended periods of heavy use and total abstinence in my life already, and I wouldn't change that. In general it's a habit that I have good control over, and one that has never jeopardized my physical wellbeing. Emotionally, psychoactive drugs can have myriad effects, but on the whole they have influenced my personality in remarkably positive ways.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#109

Post by lmmlzxx » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:11 AM UTC

reefoctopus wrote: post #107

zepolen wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

constantly using?

He is likely referring to hard drugs of some sort. "Using" connotes methamphetamines or heroin.

No meth or heroin for the last many years. I never liked either much anyway. I've referring mostly to psychedelic drugs and marijuana, which normally are considered soft, but I've consumed them to a degree that would probably shock most people.

Re: Harvard Study: Biggest Factor in Divorce Is Husband's Employment Status

#110

Post by zaroth » Fri, Jul 29, 2016, 3:20 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #102

blawson wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they mean how resources are split after a divorce, where courts are viewed as being more favourable to women. For example I think women are more likely to keep children, whereas the men will pay alimony to support them. If there are no kids the resource split might be more equitable. [edit] Also see further down: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12184148

Courts are more favorable to women in some ways, but the economic consequences are generally worse for women. "Worse" and "better" all depends on what endpoint you're looking at, just like all those studies on cholesterol (do you want to lower cholesterol or not die from heart problems?) -- do you want the alimony now or the overall financial health?

According to the 2010 Census only 3% of Americans receiving spousal benefits were men. This is after splitting the estate "equitably".

So I really don't understand what you mean by economic consequences are generally worse for women? 97% of the time it's the man's wages being garnished.