Wikileaks: Something is up • Hacker News Board

Re: Wikileaks: Something is up

#91

Post by Qz » Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 3:45 AM UTC

crosvenir wrote: post #87

vcrash wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be downvoted because you seem to imply, at least to my eyes, that they shouldn't be permitted to break the encryption on any alleged videos.

Well, that IS what I believe. But regardless to what I believe, it is illegal to knowingly publish classified information. The ramifications of doing so with respect to hacking the encryption algorithm could possibly cause far greater damage that the release of the video itself (provided it showed something ACTUALLY classified, not this cover up stuff). The point I'm really trying to make is that they are actively tr…

The kind the founding fathers envisioned, as stated by Thomas Jefferson:

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

Re: Wikileaks: Something is up

#92

Post by rw » Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 3:48 AM UTC

akgerber wrote: post #69

jaxn wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And we did it before with the School of the Americas. It was in Panama as the "U.S. Army Caribbean Training Center" and was forced to move as a result of the Panama Canal treaty. Then they changed the name to School of the America's and focused on fighting communists (with the same tactic of training what we now call insurgents). After the killing of nuns in South America it started to get bad press (referred to as t…

http://soaw.org/ There are still yearly protests there despite the name change.

It's a rally and vigil, not a protest. I know from experience.

Re: Wikileaks: Something is up

#93

Post by DougBTX » Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 3:51 AM UTC

crosvenir wrote: post #87

vcrash wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be downvoted because you seem to imply, at least to my eyes, that they shouldn't be permitted to break the encryption on any alleged videos.

Well, that IS what I believe. But regardless to what I believe, it is illegal to knowingly publish classified information. The ramifications of doing so with respect to hacking the encryption algorithm could possibly cause far greater damage that the release of the video itself (provided it showed something ACTUALLY classified, not this cover up stuff). The point I'm really trying to make is that they are actively tr…

If they were to "go away" I would neither be surprised, nor feel compassion

Where the "going away" part would hopefully be against the law too.

Re: Wikileaks: Something is up

#94

Post by Tuna-Fish » Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 4:15 AM UTC

crosvenir wrote: post #87

vcrash wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be downvoted because you seem to imply, at least to my eyes, that they shouldn't be permitted to break the encryption on any alleged videos.

Well, that IS what I believe. But regardless to what I believe, it is illegal to knowingly publish classified information. The ramifications of doing so with respect to hacking the encryption algorithm could possibly cause far greater damage that the release of the video itself (provided it showed something ACTUALLY classified, not this cover up stuff). The point I'm really trying to make is that they are actively tr…

> it is illegal to knowingly publish classified information

It is illegal to who? If I came upon classified DoD information, I would publish it with my own name, and let them have fun trying to figure out how to stick their laws to someone who is not their citizen. Plenty of wikileaks ppl are not Americans -- you cannot expect them to follow your laws.

> What kind of society have we come to where it is revered to break the law in order to exact some change on our government?

You know, the one where the last time the government got too uppity you decided to kill/exile the lot?

> The point I'm really trying to make is that they are actively trying to acquire and release classified information, which is direct disregard for the law. If they were to "go away" I would neither be surprised, nor feel compassion.

So you believe an ordinary citizen shouldn't break the laws against his government, but the government should be allowed to break its own laws against the citizens. At least be coherent, if they "Went away" that would mean a vast array of laws would be broken.

Re: Wikileaks: Something is up

#95

Post by fnid2 » Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 4:15 AM UTC

rjurney wrote: post #85

fnid2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first time I was swerving to miss a dog in the middle of a dirt road and the car spun out of control and nearly ended up in the water. The next day all my tires were flat from the sand and gravel that got lodged between the rubber tire and the rim. My windows were down and the inside of the car was full of sand and dirt and plants. The second time, I fell asleep on the interstate. The sound of the tires on the di…

Each of those times you nearly died by accident. In combat you nearly die on purpose. Repeatedly. Can you will yourself into that fear as part of your job - regularly? Isn't it a bit different?

Yeah, it's totally different. I didn't choose to be in those situations and I can't imagine ever choosing to be in something immeasurably greater in risk. The experiences soldiers have and the things they see. I wish they didn't. I haven't seen anything even close to that. When that philosopher said that, I really wondered if he believed it.

Philosophy, introspection... they're imagination. War is real.

Re: Wikileaks: Something is up

#96

Post by lsc » Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 4:26 AM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #73

fnid2 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that too. It's one thing to think about death and another to face it. But I have faced it. 4 times I've almost died: Once I was saved from drowning, I was in two car crashes, and the last time was due to an illness. Everything went blue. My vision shrank to a pin hole and right before I passed out and collapsed, this feeling of peace came over me. I remember thinking, "This is what it is like? This is dying…

Interesting. I guess the way you wind up facing death changes things? I ride motorcycles, and every now and then there are moments you are sure you're going to die (though you may not be thinking 'die' in your head). You can taste the fear as it bubbles in the pit of your stomach. I haven't known anything more frightful in my life, except for possibly the time I was fully paralyzed (lungs included) for a half-minute…

the mental 'quiet' that comes from being absolutely terrified is probably the most interesting part of motorcycling, I think. Considering the danger, it's probably not worth it, but it is very interesting how time seems to slow down, and how I seem to become more competent in times of extreme fear.

Re: Wikileaks: Something is up

#97

Post by olefoo » Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 4:30 AM UTC

fnid2 wrote: post #65

jonknee wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trackerless torrent files combined with hosts like Rapidshare, Zshare, Megaupload, etc should do the trick. Once it starts to spread it's unstoppable. Or host it in a country that likes to irritate the US government. Iran comes to mind. Venezuela would surely be open to it as well. If Osama Bin Laden can find hosting there is no reason why a group of clever engineers can't as well.

Panama and Hong Kong have several ISPs that are outside U.S. influence. You never know really. Use Tor to upload it to Youtube. See if Google helps out.

Panama outside of US influence? We invaded them not that long ago, the current political leadership there were participants in the events leading up to and following Operation Just Cause. I rather doubt that much of import happens in Panama without tacit approval of US authorities.

Re: Wikileaks: Something is up

#98

Post by crosvenir » Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 4:32 AM UTC

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #94

crosvenir wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that IS what I believe. But regardless to what I believe, it is illegal to knowingly publish classified information. The ramifications of doing so with respect to hacking the encryption algorithm could possibly cause far greater damage that the release of the video itself (provided it showed something ACTUALLY classified, not this cover up stuff). The point I'm really trying to make is that they are actively tr…

> it is illegal to knowingly publish classified information It is illegal to who? If I came upon classified DoD information, I would publish it with my own name, and let them have fun trying to figure out how to stick their laws to someone who is not their citizen. Plenty of wikileaks ppl are not Americans -- you cannot expect them to follow your laws. > What kind of society have we come to where it is revered to bre…

Well said!

> Plenty of wikileaks ppl are not Americans -- you cannot expect them to follow your laws.

A more than valid point. I had not considered the community nature of the site, nor the state in which it's owners are based.

> You know, the one where the last time the government got too uppity you decided to kill/exile the lot?

I assume you're speaking of the war in Iraq. Hmmm... I see a significant difference between a citizen breaking the laws of his own country (as this is what I was referring to) and a country breaking no laws to stop a tyrant who was slaughtering his own people. Wow I'm sure this will be a popular opinion here.

> So you believe [...] the government should be allowed to break its own laws against the citizens. [...] if they "Went away" that would mean a vast array of laws would be broken.

Well, I was assuming that if the owners/maintainers of the site went to jail then the site would go away. I was not trying to say that the government should reject 1st amendment rights.

Again I was assuming 100% US citizen involvement in this. It was a bad assumption, granted.

Re: Wikileaks: Something is up

#99

Post by setori88 » Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 4:58 AM UTC

kiba wrote: post #48

fnid2 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that too. It's one thing to think about death and another to face it. But I have faced it. 4 times I've almost died: Once I was saved from drowning, I was in two car crashes, and the last time was due to an illness. Everything went blue. My vision shrank to a pin hole and right before I passed out and collapsed, this feeling of peace came over me. I remember thinking, "This is what it is like? This is dying…

I knew of an economist who has to flee to the United States because he was high on Nazi's wanted men list.

woah, now that is something to be feared!

Re: Wikileaks: Something is up

#100

Post by bilch » Thu, Mar 25, 2010, 5:01 AM UTC

rosser wrote: post #67

yters wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should all kinds of truth always be released? I think a bit more sophistication is necessary here. For instance, should the launch codes for our nuclear weapons be made public?

I think you're offering a bit of a straw-man here. There's a vast difference between truthful documentation of past misdeeds and disclosing information that could in the future be used to cause great harm -- the difference between, "Regime X has used chemical weapons on its own people," and, "Here's how you make mustard gas."

From what I understand, mustard gas isn't hard to make at all. ("There are several routes to this compound, none of which require sophisticated technology and/or special materials.", Federation of American Scientists: Chemical Weapons Production and Storage) The process is more or less described in Wikipedia.