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Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

reuters.com

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Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#111

Post by akiselev »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #106
sdoering wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, that if it isn't anthropomorphic, then there is (at least in some peoples' minds) nothing to do about it and we can safely ignore it. We can keep doing our stuff without second thoughts. So "finger pointing" to humanity isn't that bad of a tactic to get things done.

You seem to be arguing that if there were an asteroid that's going to collide with the earth, we would all ignore it.

And the Morning Strawman Award goes to... drum roll... CWuestefeld.

If it's anthropogenic then it is a brand new phenomena in geological time and will throw many ecological systems into disarray or destroy them completely because they never evolved the adaptations. If it's not anthropogenic, then no big deal this is a regular cyclical warm period that the Earth goes through naturally. If it's a natural cycle that we're not contributing to then we have nothing to fix.

What in the world does this have to do with asteroids?

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#112

Post by r_smart »

Declanomous wrote: post #103
r_smart wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to hold an opinion of hippies similar to yours. Then 1. I watched the documentary on Woodstock and saw the disaster they made out of that place and 2. Spent a lot of time around my cousin and her friends when she was in art school. My conclusion was that hippies aren't any better or worse than other people. They suffer the same flaws as everyone else. The downside is that they seem to put forward this air of h…

Well apparently the farmer that hosted Woodstock was genuinely appreciative for everyone coming out there, and came out and thanked everyone on the last day of the festival. I agree with your sentiments overall though.

I'm just saying the movie shifted my perspective some.

Also, IIRC, he got on the stage and thanked them while it was still going on. Before he saw the mountain of trash they left on his property.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#113

Post by CWuestefeld »

ipsin wrote: post #107
CWuestefeld wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Malthusian argument is threadbare and false. Humanity has always been on the brink of demise. We've always been barely able to feed our people. This took us from hunter-gatherers to the development of agriculture, on to irrigation, fertilization, terraced farming, crop rotation, selective breeding, genetic manipulation. In terms of energy, as we depleted the forests of wood for burning, we've gone through similar…

This "we've gotten this far!" argument applies to global warming as well, doesn't it? I don't believe the proposition that global warming is not a problem because human ingenuity will fix it. Our land and oceans are already straining under our population load.

Yes, they're straining. But they've always been, through recorded history. The only difference is that when we look back at them through 21st century glasses, the problems don't even look like problems anymore.

I mean, we stopped denuding the forests to get firewood, so a visitor from, say, 3 centuries ago would be astonished at how well wooded the land is near cities. You can canoe down the Delaware River today and feel entirely surrounded by the trees, yet around the time of the Revolution, those hills were bare.

We hunted whales almost to the point of extinction. But we came up with better energy sources, and while this was recent enough that the whales haven't quite recovered yet, they're not threatened in this manner anymore.

So you'll have to explain to me how this time it's different than the countless other times when our ancestors (look back at Malthus!) claimed that we were on the brink of disaster.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#114

Post by ars »

dev1n wrote: post #65

climate change is one of those few issues where an alarmist attitude is actually needed. Still need to get more media outlets to change from saying "save the planet" to "save humanity".

Why? Humanity will be fine. At worst some people will have to move a bit inland.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#115

Post by Retric »

gst wrote: post #40
cconcepts wrote: post #9

I have no doubt that climate change is a problem. I have kids, I dont want to give them a hospital pass. I've tried to stop living such a carbon dependant lifestyle but I look outside and my efforts feel futile. How do I REALLY do something about this other than a few pretentious yet barely discomforting lifestyle changes and the odd empassioned few sentences at dinner parties? Start pushing for a carbon tax? Start a…

IMO the problem is that most sides in the discussion don't propose any viable solutions: On one side there are the climate change deniers (and the people who don't care about it). They are fine to continue business as usual. On the other side there are the people who are concerned about climate change. But instead of agreeing to effective solutions (compromises) that allow us to somewhat mitigate global warming (such…

Nuclear costs more than wind without subsidies making it a non starter. We are still wasting a lot of money on nuclear R&D in the misplaced hope of changing this, but the underlying economics are still terrible.

In terms of change, we have dramatically cut back on CO2 production vs. predictions from even 10 years ago. So we are making progress.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#116

Post by CWuestefeld »

akiselev wrote: post #111
CWuestefeld wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be arguing that if there were an asteroid that's going to collide with the earth, we would all ignore it.

And the Morning Strawman Award goes to... drum roll ... CWuestefeld. If it's anthropogenic then it is a brand new phenomena in geological time and will throw many ecological systems into disarray or destroy them completely because they never evolved the adaptations. If it's not anthropogenic, then no big deal this is a regular cyclical warm period that the Earth goes through naturally. If it's a natural cycle that we…

If it's not anthropogenic, then no big deal this is a regular cyclical warm period that the Earth goes through naturally.

Your conclusion doesn't follow. Just because man didn't create it [1] doesn't mean that it's necessarily cyclical. The earth has changed in many ways in its lifetime. Some of those changes are indeed parts of cycles. Other changes are strictly one-way.

[1] hypothetically; I'm not actually making that claim, just following that line of argument

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#117

Post by merpnderp »

cconcepts wrote: post #9

I have no doubt that climate change is a problem. I have kids, I dont want to give them a hospital pass. I've tried to stop living such a carbon dependant lifestyle but I look outside and my efforts feel futile. How do I REALLY do something about this other than a few pretentious yet barely discomforting lifestyle changes and the odd empassioned few sentences at dinner parties? Start pushing for a carbon tax? Start a…

There can't be an honest discussion about climate change that doesn't start with nuclear power.

The non-western world deserves to get to live as well as it possibly can. And telling poor African countries that if they build another coal plant they put their world loans in jeopardy is criminal. Subsidizing a few solar or wind plants doesn't even begin to impact electrical needs across the poorer parts of the world. Yet we'd rather people died today by the millions from preventable higher mortality rates due to poverty, than allow the developing world unfettered access to coal.

There's a reason many Asian countries have told the rest of the world off and started building nuclear plants as fast as they can.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#118

Post by cpncrunch »

What is this data based on? From my own experience, living on Vancouver Island, temperatures this summer have been much cooler than in recent years. This summer has been almost exactly average in temp, compared to above average for the last few years.

Looking at accuweather's data (www.accuweather.com, search for a city, then click 'month'), virtually everywhere in the US has been pretty much bang on the average temps for June and July.

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#119

Post by Brakenshire »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #95
Brakenshire wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the two sides you describe are correct, at least globally. In the UK, 70-80% of people agree that anthropogenic climate change is happening, and the Green party (who have the kind of position you're describing) only get 5% of the vote. You're presenting everyone who thinks that action needs to be taken as part of a much smaller, unrepresentative group. Also, I agree that flat blocking of nuclear is unre…

flat blocking of nuclear is unreasonable. But in my opinion disagreement on the issue is a relatively marginal issue in the general sweep of tackling climate change. The new DNC platform coming out of the convention this week doesn't seem to agree with you. It focuses solely on renewable sources, sweeping nuclear under the carpet. 70-80% of people agree that anthropogenic climate change is happening I don't understan…

Funnily enough I was thinking exactly the opposite about 'anthropogenic climate change' when I was writing that comment. To me, it is a technocratic phrase with little political or emotional resonance. I used it just to be clear what point I was making, and would much rather get rid of the jargon if I could maintain clarity.

I strongly disagree that whether or not climate change is human-caused is unimportant. How can you have a consensus on the solution without consensus on the problem?

A lot people who don't think humans are responsible will take the position that change is natural, therefore okay. Or, they will attribute change to other factors which would call for other solutions. If you don't think climate change is driven by the human-caused increases in greenhouse gas concentrations which we have seen, why would you try to tackle natural climate change through altering the concentrations of those gases?

Re: Scientists caught off-guard by record temperatures linked to climate change

#120

Post by freshfey »

cconcepts wrote: post #9

I have no doubt that climate change is a problem. I have kids, I dont want to give them a hospital pass. I've tried to stop living such a carbon dependant lifestyle but I look outside and my efforts feel futile. How do I REALLY do something about this other than a few pretentious yet barely discomforting lifestyle changes and the odd empassioned few sentences at dinner parties? Start pushing for a carbon tax? Start a…

As an end-consumer, probably not that much you can do to impact it (besides being carbon conscious and living accordingly), but as a creator/maker there are tons of things you can do.

The problem with media in my case is, that it leaves me paralyzed towards action more than it motivates me.

OT (sorry): cconcepts, is there any way to reach you via email? I have a question about one of your posts, but you don't have an email address in your profile

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