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What “full stack” really means to the job market

chrismm.com

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Re: What “full stack” really means to the job market

#31

Post by current_call »

snhorne wrote: post #28
anthonybsd wrote: post #4

>I have met many programmers that don’t like to code in their spare time, and that has reliably revealed them to be sub-par developers. Whatever little credibility you had up to this point you've just lost.

I quit reading here. This idea that programmers have to work 18-hour days just to avoid becoming substandard is idiotic. ps. if you have to spend all your free time studying to avoid losing your job, you never actually had any free time to begin with.

This idea that programmers have to work 18-hour days just to avoid becoming substandard is idiotic.

Is it stupid because it isn't true or is it stupid because you don't want it to be true?

Re: What “full stack” really means to the job market

#32

Post by maxxxxx »

Benjammer wrote: post #13
mschuster91 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly, because someone who explores other technologies unrelated to his/her "work" field will inevitably pick up experience and knowledge - which the employer can grab for free without sending the employee to expensive courses or having to hire highly specialized freelancers. I have done a lot of weird things as "hobby" projects with even weirder technologies, including interfacing with smartcards in PHP (don't…

But the point is that it totally depends on the person and it's not this hard and fast rule. It's also vague to the point of meaninglessness considering all the various kinds of technologies and depths within those technologies one might be toying with in their spare time. I would argue that the general intuition that many programmers have about people who code in their spare time is simply a too-narrow view of the p…

People used to have "hobbies". Now it needs to be a side project.

Re: What “full stack” really means to the job market

#33

Post by Animats »

The article never answers the question in its title.

The basic job of management is to organize the division of labor. In practice, "full stack" seems to mean "we don't know how to divide up the problem, so we want people who can cover for this management failure".

Re: What “full stack” really means to the job market

#34

Post by tedks »

current_call wrote: post #24
anthonybsd wrote: post #4

>I have met many programmers that don’t like to code in their spare time, and that has reliably revealed them to be sub-par developers. Whatever little credibility you had up to this point you've just lost.

The ability to automate is powerful. Anyone who doesn't find a use for it in their private life isn't just a mediocre developer; they're a mediocre human.

I wouldn't go so far as to call people who don't see the universal relevance of computation "mediocre humans," but they're certainly missing out on a lot. Computers generalize cognition and memory at scales far beyond what humans are capable of. It's ludicrous to only ever write code to shuffle around cyberwidgets.

Re: What “full stack” really means to the job market

#35

Post by leepowers »

> I have met many programmers that don’t like to code in their spare time, and that has reliably revealed them to be sub-par developers.

I dunno. When I spend 8 hours a day coding (paid), spending another 2-4 working on my own stuff isn't all that appealing. I mean, I want to do other things with my life than just write code. If that makes me a shoddy developer so be it.

When I'm not busy on paid work I do explore new technologies and techniques. Perhaps this is what the author is refering to? However I still consider this to be "work", as it's a way to shore up my skills. It's unpaid but it makes my skillset and my time more valuable.

Re: What “full stack” really means to the job market

#36

Post by ScaryRacoon »

current_call wrote: post #31
snhorne wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I quit reading here. This idea that programmers have to work 18-hour days just to avoid becoming substandard is idiotic. ps. if you have to spend all your free time studying to avoid losing your job, you never actually had any free time to begin with.

This idea that programmers have to work 18-hour days just to avoid becoming substandard is idiotic. Is it stupid because it isn't true or is it stupid because you don't want it to be true?

It isn't true. If you use your time wisely then you will be just fine. If your employer doesn't give you the time/budget for on-going education, then you need to look for a new employer.

Re: What “full stack” really means to the job market

#37

Post by ScaryRacoon »

Xyik wrote: post #20

Most full stack developers have breadth but not depth. It's incredibly time-consuming to have a complete understanding of the entire stack and no matter what you do, even if you live and drink code and do it all the time you will not be a complete engineer, there is just too much and you will never retain it all. Rather than try to be this ninja superstar that start-ups all look for these days its more realistic to b…

I recently move from a full-stack position into a more focused position. I felt like I was "jack of all, master of none" which really irked me. The time I was given for training was good, but it had to be split among all the different layers of the stack which meant I never really got an opportunity to get deep into any particular layer.

Re: What “full stack” really means to the job market

#38

Post by leepowers »

Animats wrote: post #33

The article never answers the question in its title. The basic job of management is to organize the division of labor. In practice, "full stack" seems to mean "we don't know how to divide up the problem, so we want people who can cover for this management failure".

Also - "full stack" can also mean "we don't want to hire another developer, we want one person to (poorly) do the job of three other coders"

Re: What “full stack” really means to the job market

#39

Post by ejrowley »

Xyik wrote: post #20

Most full stack developers have breadth but not depth. It's incredibly time-consuming to have a complete understanding of the entire stack and no matter what you do, even if you live and drink code and do it all the time you will not be a complete engineer, there is just too much and you will never retain it all. Rather than try to be this ninja superstar that start-ups all look for these days its more realistic to b…

> Most full stack developers have breadth but not depth.

I have to disagree with this, its a generalisation at best. In my experience the "full stack" developers have had a much deeper knowledge of a subject then the "specialist". This is simply because the layers in the stack are not as discrete people would like you to think and the full stack developer has a much better understanding of why and how something is.

Re: What “full stack” really means to the job market

#40

Post by woodpanel »

I don't agree with the author.

But full stack became a thing in job ads for a reason. And in my opinion the reason isn't because fullstackers are better. It is because of the dissonance between being able to see what cadidate needs to become your employee and being able to reach those candidates (marketing skills, interview skills, communication skills, finance skills). Using the word "fullstack" in job ads just tries to minimize this skill-gap.

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