The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline • Hacker News Board

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#351

Post by jremsikjr » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 6:07 PM UTC

ralfd wrote: post #82

larsiusprime wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of, "In defense of the floppy disk": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kylikelQBqg Surprising and excellent talk.

I was surprised about the two big carpets on stage. I wonder why they did that (or conversely no one else does that).

I'm the organizer of this conference. The stage is very flexible and has many opportunities for trap doors etc. It's honestly just a little creaky.

We've seen other benefits like folks have mentioned. It draws speakers out from behind the podium.

The theater we use is popular and we often didn't have the stage setup until 2AM the night before a 9AM start time. As organizers/hosts we couldn't be up that late.

Sometimes you come in and the stagehands at the venue read the notes about putting down the carpet and they decided to put two carpets instead of one. And the carpets are secured with gaffers tape. And you don't really see an issue with it so you leave it be.

shrug

Stuff happens.

Lis' talk is excellent though.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#352

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 6:08 PM UTC

kenbellows wrote: post #327

verisimilidude wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Skeuomorphism doesn't make sense anymore when the real world items it's based on are vanishing. Does that really matter? A perfect case in point was the old Pages icon in OS X: a quill pen in front of a cup of ink. Do you know any person who has ever used a pen like that in real life? Have you ever even seen a pen like that? I'm willing to guess not. But everyone still recognized the contents of that icon, and corr…

I'd argue that the quill pen was a special case. As you point out, it was an intentional anachronism to communicate a certain point. This was not the case with, e.g., the floppy disk, the notepad, the contacts book, etc. Everyone knew what the quill pen was because it was still frequently seen in portrayals of the olden days when it was used; even today, portrayals of Victorian England in Doctor Who or Revolutionary…

> Young users today essentially just know the image of a floppy disc as "the save button" without any skeuomorphic rationale backing it up.

Yeah, but so what? It is, nevertheless, recognizable to nearly everyone. In a world where cars still advertise their "horsepower" and pencils have graphite compound "leads" we can probably live with an icon that is well understood but whose original referent is no longer familiar.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

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Post by rmwaite » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 6:13 PM UTC

zer0defex wrote: post #177

jakobegger wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Dock absolutely lost usability; all the icons look the same now. I practically stopped using the dock because I never find the apps I'm looking for quickly; I've switched to using Spotlight for opening apps instead. The old "Pages" icon was instantly recognisable. The new one looks, at first glance, exactly the same as text edit and notes. I don't think that the UI actually needs to get out of the way. We humans…

Exactly why I make mine transparent: http://imgur.com/a/AXNy9 Contrary to popular belief these days, contrast is not the enemy.

What app is that you have the checklist in?

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

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Post by keithpeter » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 6:14 PM UTC

puranjay wrote: post #202

watmough wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like an Air would be fine, but she might want to also consider a Chromebook.

Thanks, hadn't thought of that. She actually has a Nexus and isn't really tied into the Apple ecosystem so this might actually be a good idea

https://www.neverware.com

You could (both) try out ChromeOS on a Windows laptop before traipsing down to the shop to test keyboards. Needs an 8Gb USB stick that you can erase.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

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Post by emodendroket » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 6:15 PM UTC

dpark wrote: post #239

yoz-y wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you have never seen a camera then you would not know what the old icon means either. Yes there is a picture of a palm tree there but that could be anything (given that all icons are basically pictures of something). Looking at my desk and my habits there are actually very few objects that I use for work most of it happens on screen. All in all, I think good icon design will become harder.

> But if you have never seen a camera Who are these supposed people who are buying Macs but have never seen a camera? This set of people must be miniscule if not empty. Cameras are still in use, even if most people have replaced them with smartphones. Walk around any city and you'll see gobs of people taking selfies on their phones, but you'll also see a decent number of people carrying dedicated cameras.

I'd even go so far as to say you're more likely to see them than a microphone, which no one (as far as I know, anyway) is arguing to obsolete.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#356

Post by EdSharkey » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

7Z7 wrote: post #201

wtbob wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Double click the title bar then. That's hardly discoverable though.

In fairness, it's a standard behaviour across several OSes.

Not across applications, sadly... Chrome just likes to stretch the window horizontally a little and then extend the window vertically to the top and bottom of its current display.

Hey, Google! When I double click the title bar, it means fill the !@%&%#* display!!

Just another reason why I like Firefox.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#357

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #104

gimboland wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool, so we don't need icons at all!

Indeed, icons are unnecessary. They're there to fill space with colors, which people like. Full = good. Color = happy. good + happy = sales.

I think the idea that they make no difference to usability sounds quite wrong.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#358

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 6:18 PM UTC

DavidWanjiru wrote: post #323

56k wrote: post #28

This article doesn't make any sense. The use of metaphors worked when people didn't know what a computer was, and the only way to make its UI make sense was to mimic real-world objects. Now, this is no longer necessary. It's been 40 years. While I agree that new macOS icons aren't great (see the Game Center icon), the old ones were silly. I'm 35 and I have probably seen an actual contact book only once when I was lit…

The problem with trying to get rid of skeuomorphism is that skeuomorphism is built on the idea that human beings use single tools for single tasks. A pen to write, and only write. An old school phone to call, and only to call. A clock to tell time, and only to tell time. A camera to take pictures, and only to take pictures. For this reason, skeuomorphism works coz we associate the icon with the task. Hence message ic…

Or we could just stick with the old design language, which nobody is confused by.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#359

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 6:21 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #269

All UI has gone less Skeuomorphic and flatter. Google's doing it and giving "material design" talks at all the major conferences. Just look at their design https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_Design Windows embraces flat design way more than Apple does, maybe the author needs to check out an Xbox or use a Surface for a few minutes? Websites everywhere are minimalistic and flat compared to five years ago. This is…

> maybe the author needs to check out an Xbox or use a Surface for a few minutes?

Indeed, how could he not have experienced these resoundingly successful designs?

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#360

Post by adamlett » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 6:22 PM UTC

pseudalopex wrote: post #262

adamlett wrote: post #57

There is an old macintosh print ad in the article stating something like: "A computer that everyone can use will get used by everyone". It immediately made me think of iOS. No matter how good you think the UI paradigm of the mac was at its peak, it doesn't compete with iOS in user friendliness. We've all heard stories of or witnessed 2-year olds who can navigate an iPad. That was never the case for a mac. I wonder if…

A 2-year-old can navigate an iPad because a touch screen requires less motor control than a mouse. The Norman/Tognazzini article points out the loss of discoverability, feedback, and recovery in iOS. The most pointed criticisms I've seen of Apple's UI changes have been from people who work in visual media. "Serious content producers" use Finder for the same things as the rest of us. The interface isn't consistently m…

A 2-year-old can navigate an iPad because a touch screen requires less motor control than a mouse.

That's certainly a large part of it, but I don't see how that detracts from my point. The touch interface is as much software as it is hardware. To the extent that we forget that, it really proves that Apple really nailed the software. Things like flick to scroll and pinch to zoom seem obvious now because they feel so natural, but they are a feature of the software, not the hardware.

I also don't agree that the touch interface is the only reason an iOS device is much easier to use. Anecdotally, my father in using his iPhone for the first time feels like he masters a computer. Mind you, this is not someone who is a stranger to computers. He has used a desktop PC for years at his office.

The Norman/Tognazzini article points out the loss of discoverability, feedback, and recovery in iOS.

I don't know if I've read that particular article, but I've seen similar criticisms before. And I do believe that there is something to them. But I also feel like they are blown out of proportion and/or fail to take into account the constraints of the small size of a phone screen. Not to say that Apple hasn't made outright mistakes, but I do think they get it right far more than they get it wrong.

The most pointed criticisms I've seen of Apple's UI changes have been from people who work in visual media

That's hard to argue against, since you don't say what specific criticisms they make.

The interface isn't consistently more subtle; where color hasn't been removed, it's brighter and more saturated.

I probably overstated that particular point. There is certainly lots of evidence these days to suggest that Apple doesn't care all that much about the pro market.