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Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

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Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#111

Post by 6d6b73 »

Wildgoose wrote: post #87
6d6b73 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I wanted to buy copy a famous painting from the museum for the market price but they did not agree to sell it to me because they don't ship to my state. So I drove there and took it when nobody was watching. How is that not a theft?" That's pretty much what it boils down to.

Don't be ridiculous. A better analogy would be that the museum sold JPEGs of a work of art you wanted to use as a desktop background, but refused to sell one to a different state. So instead you downloaded a copy of the photograph.

And you think JPEGS are free? It takes hardware, software and some skills. Someone needs to spend time creating them. They have the right to refuse to sell you whatever they created. That refusal does not negate their right to their work.

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#112

Post by Ace17 »

rhino369 wrote: post #104
frosting wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically speaking, the only reason anyone "owns" media is due to literally hundreds of years of lobbying. Books, stories, and songs were all once free to copy. This is the nature of religious books, fairy tales, and folk songs. Ethically speaking, "ownership" has a tenuous position. I find it easier to argue that ownership is a construct of society than it is an innate part of anything. That means it's flexible t…

The only reason you own anything is thousands of years of lobbying. Copyright and property rights are both artificial constructs.

The scarcity that physical property deals with isn't artificial.

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#113

Post by Freak_NL »

6d6b73 wrote: post #95
Freak_NL wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the common rebuttal, but if someone illegally downloads a film he or she never intended to purchase or rent anyway, then that argument does not hold. Even if the choice is between buying something legally and downloading it for free illegally, that word does not apply. Loss of income does not equal theft . Whether you have then been wronged or not is another discussion with valid arguments on both sides.

If you did not want "to purchase or rent " legally why is it ok to do it illegally? Is it that you did not purchase or rent it because you knew that you could simply steal it?

I am neither condemning nor condoning illegal downloading when you had no intention of paying for it — merely stating that it is not theft; the differences are just too great due to the nature of digital content (i.e., being able to effortlessly copy an item without incurring more than trivial costs).

Why not call it copyright infringement if you want a more neutral term?

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#114

Post by dragonwriter »

6d6b73 wrote: post #84
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and when I don't hire you, that means that you won't have money to buy food, so you will starve. So, I am not murdering you in the sense that I am shooting you, but I am murdering you in the sense that I am not hiring you. Words have commonly accepted definitions, and copyright or contract violation simply does not fall under theft. "I think it's bad, theft is bad, therefore, it's theft" just is an incoherent a…

Oh, so if you go to a dealer and took the car that you never wanted to buy because it's too expensive, only for a one drive, without asking anyone you were not stealing because this would not deprive anyone of any money?

> Oh, so if you go to a dealer and took the car that you never wanted to buy because it's too expensive, only for a one drive, without asking anyone you were not stealing

Well, sure, that would be joyriding rather than vehicular theft. Still a crime. [0]

[0] http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal...

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#115

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

seren wrote: post #18
imgabe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theft deprives the owner of something. Making a copy leaves the original intact. Technically HBO would not be providing them with the service. HBO provided the service to someone who paid for it. That person then made a digital copy and gave it to someone else. HBO is not involved in the second transaction. After I purchase something, am I not entitled to do what I wish with it, including giving it away?

What about identity theft ?

There really is no such thing as identity theft. Rather, some organizations occasionally fail at authenticating people (that is: they fail to correctly determine the identity of people). Usually because they use obviously unreliable methods for doing so (like, asking for information that is semi-public, like date of birth or SSNs, which obviously cannot be used to reliably determine your identity). Then, after they failed at that, and believed some random person's unsubstantiated claim that they were you, and as a result gave that person access to something that they shouldn't have, they try to deflect their responsibility for that failure by claiming some bullshit about "identity theft".

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#116

Post by phn »

rhino369 wrote: post #110
tdsamardzhiev wrote: post #5

There's a huge amount of books/music/movies/games that I have no means of obtaining legally. There's also tons of stuff I don't have convenient way to buy (e.g. no way I'm paying full HBO NOW subscription for watching a single TV show). We are 16 years into 21st century now, it's about time for big-name producers to stop calling people "thieves" and offer them an acceptable service instead.

HBO puts their shows on iTunes as one off downloads a couple months after premiere. If you aren't willing to wait that long you should be willing to pay full price to subscribe. HBO now is an acceptable service. One pirates demanded for years. The lack of which they used to justify piracy. And now I see pirates have now decided it's too much. Let's face it, your piracy is due to be cheap ass.

Maybe the price is still too high, especially if you only watch a couple of shows/movies.

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#117

Post by dragonwriter »

6d6b73 wrote: post #107
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use someone's property without authorization, but don't intend to deprive them of it permanently, that indeed in most jurisdictions is not theft, that is criminal conversion. It's really not that difficult, you can simply look up what these terms mean instead of inventing your own definitions. "Depriving someone of money" is not the definition of theft. And it not only isn't, it would be a braindead definition…

Is it still "criminal conversion" when you decide after that one ride that you want to keep that car in your garage, but not drive it anymore? You will return it some other day.. Maybe in 2020. After all it's just a copy of that prototype that the manufacturer created. It's a copy, and you did not intend to buy it anyway so it's all right, and it's not a theft right?

> Is it still "criminal conversion" when you decide after that one ride that you want to keep that car in your garage, but not drive it anymore? You will return it some other day..

Technically, you still haven't committed theft, since the intent must be present at the time of the taking.

OTOH, in practical terms (aside from the fact that its still a crime either way), the fact that you did keep it is something that a prosecutor will often have very little trouble convincing a jury is clear evidence that you intended to keep it when you took it.

> It's a copy, and you did not intend to buy it anyway so it's all right

Criminal conversion (in the general case) or joyriding (sometimes a separate offense in the automotive case) is not "all right"; just because it is a different criminal offense than (general or auto) theft, its still a crime, which is kind of the opposite of "all right" from the perspective of the legal system.

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#118

Post by [deleted] »

hiou wrote: post #42
chris_va wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After I purchase something, am I not entitled to do what I wish with it, including giving it away? There is clear precedent that you are not. In this case, HBO is a business trying to make profit. It spends enormous amounts of money producing shows. Giving away a copy of their product for free arguably reduces their ability to stay solvent. Thus, theft.

So if I start a pizza place across the street from another pizza place I'm a thief? Or even worse gave away free pizza!? The horror. Didn't realize it was a basic human right for a business to make a profit. Nor did I realize it was the governments responsibility to ensure a business makes a profit. Enlightening stuff I'm learning today.

[deleted]

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#119

Post by [deleted] »

hiou wrote: post #42
chris_va wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After I purchase something, am I not entitled to do what I wish with it, including giving it away? There is clear precedent that you are not. In this case, HBO is a business trying to make profit. It spends enormous amounts of money producing shows. Giving away a copy of their product for free arguably reduces their ability to stay solvent. Thus, theft.

So if I start a pizza place across the street from another pizza place I'm a thief? Or even worse gave away free pizza!? The horror. Didn't realize it was a basic human right for a business to make a profit. Nor did I realize it was the governments responsibility to ensure a business makes a profit. Enlightening stuff I'm learning today.

[deleted]

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#120

Post by [deleted] »

hiou wrote: post #42
chris_va wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After I purchase something, am I not entitled to do what I wish with it, including giving it away? There is clear precedent that you are not. In this case, HBO is a business trying to make profit. It spends enormous amounts of money producing shows. Giving away a copy of their product for free arguably reduces their ability to stay solvent. Thus, theft.

So if I start a pizza place across the street from another pizza place I'm a thief? Or even worse gave away free pizza!? The horror. Didn't realize it was a basic human right for a business to make a profit. Nor did I realize it was the governments responsibility to ensure a business makes a profit. Enlightening stuff I'm learning today.

[deleted]
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