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The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

nicholaswindsorhoward.com

321–330 of 440 posts

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#321
post #154

WYSIWYG has NOTHING to do with UI design. It refers to being able to print a document (fonts, sizes, lines, pictures) in such a way that it precisely resembles what you see in the application's document window.

Yeah, I was also very confused by that. The article made it sound as if the WYSIWYG explanation was a quote from Apple's guidelines, or maybe from XEROX, so I wondered whether I misunderstood WYSIWYG this whole time.

Searched, and nope, that whole box is by the article author, not a quote. The author doesn't know what WYSIWYG is and wrote some projected explanation. Very likely he didn't go through the WYSIWYG era; it was a big deal, and wouldn't be that easily misinterpreted.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#322
post #5

The change appears to be a part of the broader trend towards flat design from realistic design in the UI community. A balanced point of view: http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2013/12/infographic-flat-des...

"Flat design versus Skeuomorphism" isn't really a valid comparison; flat design can still use skeuomorphic elements like the infamous floppy-disk icon, just without the subtle hints that the icon is actually a button. Battery status is still shown, generally, through an AA-cell icon, the trash is a dustbin, 'like' is a heart. "Flat design" versus "visual nudging", for want of a better term, is what the debate's reall…

I think "flat versus skeuomorphism" is the correct opposition, and it's the "Apple Goes Mushy" article which is muddling the terminology by conflating at least three different things.

* Skeumorphism is about rendering individual materials. E.g. compare the old and new Safari icons. Both show a blue compass, but the old one is drawn as a realistically rendered 3d-object with perspective and metallic reflections, and the new one is a flat 2d drawing. Similarly, the old design of the maximize/close buttons on windows were rendered skeumorphically, as a some kind of plastic 3d-object, the new ones are 2d.

* Then there is the use of visual metaphors versus abstract symbolism. E.g. the old icon for Photos was a picture of a camera and photo, the new one is an abstract symbol (apparently it's supposed to be a stylized sunflower?).

* And finally he talks about color choices: the old design used lots of saturated colors, the new one has more desaturated ones with a few saturated accents.

All of these can vary independently. A stylized line drawing of a battery is not an instance of skeumorphism, but it is a use of visual metaphor.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#323
post #28

This article doesn't make any sense. The use of metaphors worked when people didn't know what a computer was, and the only way to make its UI make sense was to mimic real-world objects. Now, this is no longer necessary. It's been 40 years. While I agree that new macOS icons aren't great (see the Game Center icon), the old ones were silly. I'm 35 and I have probably seen an actual contact book only once when I was lit…

The problem with trying to get rid of skeuomorphism is that skeuomorphism is built on the idea that human beings use single tools for single tasks. A pen to write, and only write. An old school phone to call, and only to call. A clock to tell time, and only to tell time. A camera to take pictures, and only to take pictures. For this reason, skeuomorphism works coz we associate the icon with the task. Hence message icons are envelopes, coz envelopes hold messages and nothing else, more or less. We've seen erase icons on software that look like pencil erasers. The camera icon? Of course it's a camera. And so on.

Enter the smartphone.

The smartphone does everything. It makes calls, takes pictures, receives messages, tells time, shows TV shows (we'll have to stop calling them TV shows, won't we?), etc. Since icons resemble the tools used to carry out given tasks, what are we to do when one tool does all tasks?

That's the problem for skeuomorphism. What are we to do for icons when one tool does everything? Create icons depicting people doing those different things, a bit like emoji? A selfie icon for the camera, a person talking on the phone for voice functions, a message bubbles icon that mimics message interfaces for messages?

I don't know. I guess a language to replace the skeuomorphism language will emerge.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#324
post #28

This article doesn't make any sense. The use of metaphors worked when people didn't know what a computer was, and the only way to make its UI make sense was to mimic real-world objects. Now, this is no longer necessary. It's been 40 years. While I agree that new macOS icons aren't great (see the Game Center icon), the old ones were silly. I'm 35 and I have probably seen an actual contact book only once when I was lit…

> I'm 35 and I have probably seen an actual contact book only once when I was little. This just seems weird to me. Contacts books were replaced in a very limited way by PDAs for early adopters, but it wasn't until smartphones and their easy address books that they really started to die off. So post-2008, really. Were you not in professional settings until your late 20s? Still be surprised if you are both 35 and genui…

Not the parent, but I agree with them: Many tech savvy people abandoned contact books decades ago. Contact books serve two needs - long term storage and quick reference to frequently used numbers. Computers have provided the long term storage, and various other facilities provided the quick reference, even before smart phones: human memory, print outs, sticky notes, pdas, basic cell phones.

In the 90s I knew people who'd set their browser homepage to a 'quick reference info' page on their server which included frequently needed numbers.

The only tech savvy people I've known to use contact books in the last twenty years seemed a bit eccentric to me.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#325
post #16

One thing I really dislike about 10.10 is that "maximizing" a window will - with a few exceptions - switch it to fullscreen. To maximize a window I need to press Alt while clicking the maximize-button. And there is not even an option to switch this behavior. On a small laptop screen this behaviour might be preferable, but on a FullHD display, I find it rather annoying.

Ah see I like that behaviour. I've never once wanted to fill the screen with an app without putting it in fullscreen, I just don't see what the point of doing that would be.

> I've never once wanted to fill the screen with an app without putting it in fullscreen, I just don't see what the point of doing that would be.

For me, it’s for ease of working with multiple windows. I frequently work with multiple windows at one time, or multiple programs, and Apple’s full screen is awkward for that.

Switching windows invokes a cute but lengthy animation. I can’t have a window take most of a full screen, leaving a corner for clicking to the other window. ⌘-tab works very poorly, especially on multi-monitor desktops, because it forces you to remember implementation details about which application has windows on which desktop. ⌘-` window switching doesn’t work with full-screen. It’s just a mess.

Even in web browsing, I don’t use only tabs. I use multiple windows, so I don’t full-screen those, either.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#326
post #6

I agree with the author that OSX has lost a lot of it's personality, but I don't agree with the notion that this is a bad thing. I don't want my OS to have much of a personality. It's a tool for getting things done. The less I see of the OS the better.

I agree that OS X should out of your way most of the time, but what about the unboxing experience? Buying or upgrading a Mac used to feel very satisfying because you were welcomed by a cool intro video (10.3 was playing even Röyksopp!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gov-XY7mDPE Apple still produces videos like these, but only to show them at WWDC and on their website. New users are only greeted by grey/white screen…

I hate having intro videos playing when I set up a new computer. They attract the attention of everybody else in the office, and I have to scramble to mute, then close, them.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm 35 and I have probably seen an actual contact book once when I was little. It doesn't make sense to have a skeuomorphic contact book as an icon for Contacts. There was a rhetoric not too long ago where OSx fanboys would make fun of Windows' interfaces for still using the disk icon as the "save" button. Now that guy is complaining that the photos app icon doesn't look like a Point And Shoot camera, when fewer an…

> Skeuomorphism doesn't make sense anymore when the real world items it's based on are vanishing. Does that really matter? A perfect case in point was the old Pages icon in OS X: a quill pen in front of a cup of ink. Do you know any person who has ever used a pen like that in real life? Have you ever even seen a pen like that? I'm willing to guess not. But everyone still recognized the contents of that icon, and corr…

I'd argue that the quill pen was a special case. As you point out, it was an intentional anachronism to communicate a certain point. This was not the case with, e.g., the floppy disk, the notepad, the contacts book, etc. Everyone knew what the quill pen was because it was still frequently seen in portrayals of the olden days when it was used; even today, portrayals of Victorian England in Doctor Who or Revolutionary America in Hamilton inevitably show a few quill pens in use. But the reason people recognized floppy disks, contact books, and notepads was because they were still in active use at the time.

You point out that while the quill pen was long outdated when it was first used, "everyone still recognized the contents of that icon", but that's exactly the problem that the GP and GGP are pointing out: more and more of the old skeuomorphic icons reference real world icons that younger users (and indeed some older users) actually don't recognize. Notepads, sure, we've still got those; contact books, eh, you'll see them once in a while, but tbh when I see a bare "contact book" icon without a label it occasionally takes me a second to figure out what I'm looking at; floppy disks, as has been argued to death, are entirely a thing of the past, with the exception of old systems and archives still in use in dusty university basements. Young users today essentially just know the image of a floppy disc as "the save button" without any skeuomorphic rationale backing it up.

The skeuomorphic link between computers and the physical objects we use is is constantly degrading, to the point that using skeuo icons can sometimes actually inhibit the user experience and slow the user down while they try to figure out what they're looking at. We have common patterns emerging with no or very little connection to the real world; a great example would the "hamburger" menu button. If there's any metaphor there in the user's mind, it's to the row items that will appear when you click on it, not to anything physical, yet it's perfectly comprehensible to anyone who's been using digital devices for any length of time.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#328
post #128
post #28

This article doesn't make any sense. The use of metaphors worked when people didn't know what a computer was, and the only way to make its UI make sense was to mimic real-world objects. Now, this is no longer necessary. It's been 40 years. While I agree that new macOS icons aren't great (see the Game Center icon), the old ones were silly. I'm 35 and I have probably seen an actual contact book only once when I was lit…

> I hate how Safari hides the full address in the address bar, for instance. You have no idea how much this change makes the URL field palatable for regular Joe. Previously: hhtpttpp://faceblablah.com/techmumbo/jumbo?not=h4ck3r. Now: facebooook.com.ru => "wow this really is not Facebook!". I basically witnessed such behaviour change first hand. > Or, how they removed scrollbars and force people to actually scroll eve…

[deleted]

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm 35 and I have probably seen an actual contact book once when I was little. It doesn't make sense to have a skeuomorphic contact book as an icon for Contacts. There was a rhetoric not too long ago where OSx fanboys would make fun of Windows' interfaces for still using the disk icon as the "save" button. Now that guy is complaining that the photos app icon doesn't look like a Point And Shoot camera, when fewer an…

Speaking of, "In defense of the floppy disk": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kylikelQBqg Surprising and excellent talk.

Sums it up. Most interesting is that more teenagers tend to know what an icon is used for on the computer than what it originally represented. Which makes total sense because they grew up with these icons.

So it might make more sense to ask "to what degree are people used to this icon?" rather than "how many know where this icon came from?".

In this sense, changing established icons (like I would argue the photo app's one) doesn't seem such a good idea.

Re: The Apple Goes Mushy Part I: OS X's Interface Decline

#330
post #28

This article doesn't make any sense. The use of metaphors worked when people didn't know what a computer was, and the only way to make its UI make sense was to mimic real-world objects. Now, this is no longer necessary. It's been 40 years. While I agree that new macOS icons aren't great (see the Game Center icon), the old ones were silly. I'm 35 and I have probably seen an actual contact book only once when I was lit…

> I'm 35 and I have probably seen an actual contact book once when I was little. It doesn't make sense to have a skeuomorphic contact book as an icon for Contacts. There was a rhetoric not too long ago where OSx fanboys would make fun of Windows' interfaces for still using the disk icon as the "save" button. Now that guy is complaining that the photos app icon doesn't look like a Point And Shoot camera, when fewer an…

>Skeuomorphism doesn't make sense anymore when the real world items it's based on are vanishing.

It makes sense for older people who remember them, who also are the folks who are more likely to have trouble understanding and interacting with computers. If your target audience was just young kids with neuroelasticity and hipsters who live this stuff, you could deploy a Brainfuck UI/UX and not only would they get it, they'd love it.

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