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Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

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Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#51

Post by deepnet »

6d6b73 wrote: post #27
deepnet wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone has the legal right to view something. Copyright only prevents producing and distributing unlicensed copies, i.e. uploading or sharing. Downloading, streaming, or attending an unlicensed performance is not copyright infringement. Without Copyright, and when it expires, the natural state of culture is to be copied, that is how it evolves - all works exist naturally in the public domain. Copyright is a limited…

You only have the right to view something if someone who created that wants you to view it. If they say that you can view it after you pay, that's their right. If you pay and are allowed to view it you can describe it in any way you want to other people, but you are not allowed to spend that time you had for viewing it to make a copy of it and show it to some other people that did not pay the original author. If you…

> but you are not allowed to spend that time you had for viewing it to make a copy of it and show it to some other people that did not pay the original author

I clearly said that making an unlicensed copy and distributing it infringes copyright so we agree.

> You only have the right to view something if someone who created that wants you to view it.

Here we disagree, copyright does not prevent many things like borrowing a friends book or downloading a movie.

Do you have any sources where someone was prosecuted for unlicensed viewing or downloading - this would substantiate your argument.

Uploading and sharing is what copyright prevents, not downloading.

> how is that not a theft?

It is not theft, theft means depriving someone of something actual - copyright infringement is against the law but no-one is charged with theft for it.

Damages are awarded against uploaders but potential income and stolen money are not equivalent.

Copyright is a time limited monopoly, possesion is not - trying to conflate copying with theft does not further the discussion, it only muddies the discourse.

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#52

Post by tdsamardzhiev »

te_chris wrote: post #29
tdsamardzhiev wrote: post #5

There's a huge amount of books/music/movies/games that I have no means of obtaining legally. There's also tons of stuff I don't have convenient way to buy (e.g. no way I'm paying full HBO NOW subscription for watching a single TV show). We are 16 years into 21st century now, it's about time for big-name producers to stop calling people "thieves" and offer them an acceptable service instead.

So you want an 'acceptable service', despite admitting you're not willing to pay for multitude available to you already (iTunes/Play/Amazon for one offs and then all the Sub ones for library access)?

I'm not opposing the subscription model in general. It's just that I don't find the particular implementation appealing. I am currently subscribed to iTunes, iCloud, and several other services.

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#53

Post by zipwitch »

segmondy wrote: post #12
tdsamardzhiev wrote: post #5

There's a huge amount of books/music/movies/games that I have no means of obtaining legally. There's also tons of stuff I don't have convenient way to buy (e.g. no way I'm paying full HBO NOW subscription for watching a single TV show). We are 16 years into 21st century now, it's about time for big-name producers to stop calling people "thieves" and offer them an acceptable service instead.

Listen, you have no right to someone's else own work. If you don't want to pay HBO NOW to watch a single TV show. No problem. If you do however pirate their show, then that's stealing and the owner has a right to call you a thief. If HBO decides to charge $1,000 per episode, that would be very outrageous, but that still doesn't give anyone the right to steal their show. BTW, I know the pain, I really want to watch Sh…

Thomas Babington Macaulay gave some brilliant speeches on this, back in the first half of the 19th century: http://homepages.law.asu.edu/~dkarjala/OpposingCopyrightExte...

One takeaway from his words is brutally practical: if access to information (including entertainment) is not cheap and plentiful, people will pirate. All that attempts to prevent piracy (i.e. enforce rent-extracting monopolies)accomplish is encourage it, and create not just sympathy, but public acceptance and encouragement of it.

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#54

Post by 6d6b73 »

kofejnik wrote: post #38
segmondy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listen, you have no right to someone's else own work. If you don't want to pay HBO NOW to watch a single TV show. No problem. If you do however pirate their show, then that's stealing and the owner has a right to call you a thief. If HBO decides to charge $1,000 per episode, that would be very outrageous, but that still doesn't give anyone the right to steal their show. BTW, I know the pain, I really want to watch Sh…

watching/reading something without authorization is not theft; redefining the words to suit your cause feels no less wrong than 'pirating'

It's you who is trying to redefine the words to make theft acceptable.

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#55

Post by Wildgoose »

I used an App on my old iPod to BUY and read the first in a series of books.

I then tried to purchase the second volume, only to have the transaction declined because I don't live in North America.

I wrote to Penguin USA to complain about this, pointing out that the book I wished to purchase was freely available on download sites so Why were they refusing to sell it to me?

Their response was that I should find a US book store online, place an order for a physical copy and then either wait around 4 weeks for it to be delivered via surface mail or pay a premium price (more than the cost of the book) to have it delivered by airmail.

The fact that I actually specifically wanted an electronic copy for its convenience and immediacy was just ignored.

A downloaded copy does not deprive anyone of the original possession. The only issue in these cases is the legitimate right to be recompensed for that copy. However, if the owner refuses to exercise that right, how can downloading a copy still be considered "theft"?

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#56

Post by Freak_NL »

seren wrote: post #18
imgabe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theft deprives the owner of something. Making a copy leaves the original intact. Technically HBO would not be providing them with the service. HBO provided the service to someone who paid for it. That person then made a digital copy and gave it to someone else. HBO is not involved in the second transaction. After I purchase something, am I not entitled to do what I wish with it, including giving it away?

What about identity theft ?

Your identity may be intangible, but you can certainly be deprived of its proper use by someone successfully impersonating you. So unlike digital piracy (for want of a better term) something is taken from you in a manner that precludes your own use of it.

More to the point though, labelling the act of downloading the latest film as theft is not conductive to a discussion about the moral justification of piracy, because you are using loaded language to condemn it even before presenting an argument. That is, there appears to be no strong consensus that piracy falls under what is commonly referred to as theft.

(I am under the impression that the term digital piracy did stick regardless of one's position in that debate.)

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#57

Post by unicornporn »

segmondy wrote: post #12
tdsamardzhiev wrote: post #5

There's a huge amount of books/music/movies/games that I have no means of obtaining legally. There's also tons of stuff I don't have convenient way to buy (e.g. no way I'm paying full HBO NOW subscription for watching a single TV show). We are 16 years into 21st century now, it's about time for big-name producers to stop calling people "thieves" and offer them an acceptable service instead.

Listen, you have no right to someone's else own work. If you don't want to pay HBO NOW to watch a single TV show. No problem. If you do however pirate their show, then that's stealing and the owner has a right to call you a thief. If HBO decides to charge $1,000 per episode, that would be very outrageous, but that still doesn't give anyone the right to steal their show. BTW, I know the pain, I really want to watch Sh…

"We are creating a world that all may enter without privilege or prejudice accorded by race, economic power, military force, or station of birth.

We are creating a world where anyone, anywhere may express his or her beliefs, no matter how singular, without fear of being coerced into silence or conformity.

Your legal concepts of property, expression, identity, movement, and context do not apply to us. They are all based on matter. There is no matter here."[1]

When I read comments like yours I can't help missing the early visionaries of the cyberspace.

[1] https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#58

Post by Dolores12 »

ehnto wrote: post #44
imgabe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theft deprives the owner of something. Making a copy leaves the original intact. Technically HBO would not be providing them with the service. HBO provided the service to someone who paid for it. That person then made a digital copy and gave it to someone else. HBO is not involved in the second transaction. After I purchase something, am I not entitled to do what I wish with it, including giving it away?

The answer is no, you are not entitled to do that. Whether or not you agree with them, laws were brought in that stop you from doing that for the sole purpose of protecting the copyright owners. The laws were brought in, because people were abusing the ability to copy digital media and profiting off of it. Essentially making money off of someone else's hard work. That is what the laws are there to stop. The unfortuna…

What kind of profit do i get giving my copy of something to my parents to watch?

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#59

Post by angersock »

ehnto wrote: post #44
imgabe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theft deprives the owner of something. Making a copy leaves the original intact. Technically HBO would not be providing them with the service. HBO provided the service to someone who paid for it. That person then made a digital copy and gave it to someone else. HBO is not involved in the second transaction. After I purchase something, am I not entitled to do what I wish with it, including giving it away?

The answer is no, you are not entitled to do that. Whether or not you agree with them, laws were brought in that stop you from doing that for the sole purpose of protecting the copyright owners. The laws were brought in, because people were abusing the ability to copy digital media and profiting off of it. Essentially making money off of someone else's hard work. That is what the laws are there to stop. The unfortuna…

The laws you are referring to were basically just Autodesk enforcing a monopoly position, and these laws directly harmed consumers.

The big elephant in the room is that distribution and maybe even production do not require publishers anymore...and so instead of changing to adapt to the market they are out cracking down on supposed pirates.

It takes a lot of ignorance of the business model of publishers to defend their status as on par with artists.

Re: Book Piracy as Peer Preservation

#60

Post by 6d6b73 »

wolfgke wrote: post #41
6d6b73 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you're not stealing in a sense that you're taking something physical, you are stealing in a sense that you are not compensating author for their work. Let's say you are graphics designer. You are hired to create logo for a company. Company likes your work and they just copy the file you've sent to them but they decided they are not going to pay you. Are they stealing from you or is it "just" copyright infringem…

If a graphic designer is hired to do something for someone, it is usually agreed beforehand how much money he will get for the job. If he doesn't get the money, it is simply a breach of agreement.

If you copy something with "coping prohibited" you're also in a breach of agreement, whether you agree with it or not.
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