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Why do so few humans kill themselves?

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Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#71

Post by kdamken »

Practicality wrote: post #62
mikeash wrote: post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

In addition to a desire to live, not everyone views suffering as the worst possible thing. If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. The loss in experience is worse than any level of pain. For the obvious counterpoint: I say that from experience not naivete. I've had a nerve in my hand accidentally sliced lengthwise (for a significant length) b…

Out of curiosity - was the pain fixed when you woke back up? Because brief, intense pain like that is one thing, but experiencing pain all day, everyday is a very different beast. Even if it's a tenth of the pain that you felt, that kind of thing really wears on you, especially after years and years and no help from doctors.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#72

Post by mikeash »

spdustin wrote: post #68
mikeash wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a terrifying sentiment. I'm astonished at how attracted people are to theories where problems are necessarily the fault of the person experiencing them. Hey, if you're suffering, there's an easy solution: just choose not to! Gee, why didn't I ever think of that.

I think I took something different from it than others are. Many people choose not to suffer, because "suicide is an option". Or pills. Or therapy. Or, the lucky ones, they can switch it off. Depression (noted in another comment) further limits the ways by which one can control the suffering brought on by pain. I know this well. Many of us do.

The strong will to live inherent in most humans means that suicide is typically not a choice people can make. That's kind of my whole point: the fact that anybody can ever make this choice is remarkable. But to take the possibility of suicide and thereby declare that suffering is a choice makes no sense to me. It may be for some, but not for most.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#73

Post by panic »

ultramancool wrote: post #39
_jgvg wrote: post #23

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 "Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from…

You'd be literally adding chemicals to change people's brain chemistry to the water. The conspiracy theorists would be pretty justified I'd say. I think this is the sort of thing you should really decide for yourself individually.

We already remove chemicals from the water that change people's brain chemistry (e.g., lead). Adding something entirely helpful doesn't seem that different from removing something entirely harmful.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#74

Post by johnward »

iaskwhy wrote: post #38
nibs wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407…

Are these available as supplements and, if so, is it safe to take them?

It's available as a prescription in the US. A psychiatrist can prescribe it. There are other drugs that have less side effects that can be tried first though. I wouldn't take it without doctor supervision as it's very easy to reach toxic levels in your blood. Even while on it with a doctor you need blood work regularly. It is one thing that did finally start to help me after about 10 years of dealing with bipolar 2 (which included symptoms of not wanting to live).

https://www.crazymeds.us/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Meds/Lithium

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#75

Post by reitanqild »

johnward wrote: post #69
ultramancool wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be literally adding chemicals to change people's brain chemistry to the water. The conspiracy theorists would be pretty justified I'd say. I think this is the sort of thing you should really decide for yourself individually.

What about all those cancer causing chemicals we allow companies to dump into the water or fluoride? I guess the conspiracy theorists are already onto fluoride.

> I guess the conspiracy theorists are already onto fluoride.

They are. I hope however that we can agree that they are in fact conspiracy theorists.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#76

Post by spdustin »

mikeash wrote: post #72
spdustin wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I took something different from it than others are. Many people choose not to suffer, because "suicide is an option". Or pills. Or therapy. Or, the lucky ones, they can switch it off. Depression (noted in another comment) further limits the ways by which one can control the suffering brought on by pain. I know this well. Many of us do.

The strong will to live inherent in most humans means that suicide is typically not a choice people can make. That's kind of my whole point: the fact that anybody can ever make this choice is remarkable. But to take the possibility of suicide and thereby declare that suffering is a choice makes no sense to me. It may be for some, but not for most.

You did see that I listed other options, right?

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#77

Post by mikeash »

spdustin wrote: post #76
mikeash wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strong will to live inherent in most humans means that suicide is typically not a choice people can make. That's kind of my whole point: the fact that anybody can ever make this choice is remarkable. But to take the possibility of suicide and thereby declare that suffering is a choice makes no sense to me. It may be for some, but not for most.

You did see that I listed other options, right?

Does it matter? There are plenty of people suffering from problems that can't be fixed by pills or therapy and who are not mentally capable of suicide. Suffering may be a choice for some, but it is not a choice for many.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#78

Post by Kenji »

_jgvg wrote: post #23

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 "Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from…

Ludicrous. Let people decide that for themselves. I can't believe anyone is seriously suggesting force medicating us because it seems to be correlated (note, correlation, not necessarily causation) with a drop of suicide, homicide and rape. We don't even know how lithium would cause such a thing and its exact effect on the psyche.

I have been following the field of psychology and psychiatry closely and let me tell you, they are not only far from understanding and curing the causes of mental disorders, they are also prescribing very harmful medication based on biased research funded by pharma. What you are arguing for is very dangerous.

And even if it was shown to be beneficial beyond doubt, why not make these supplements available in another form, cheaply and conveniently? State mandated force medication is not only infantilizing to the extreme, it also violates essential liberties of the people.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#79

Post by mbrock »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #45
nibs wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407…

It's fine if you want to medicate yourself with lithium, but it's not acceptable to forcibly medicate everyone else. The studies you linked to show an interesting correlation between lithium in water supplies and reduced suicide levels, but you can't judge the net benefit on a single metric alone. Lithium is not without side effects, and it's unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of the population that is ot…

Then we should also think about whether governments in areas where lithium is naturally higher have an obligation to remove it from their citizens' water.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#80

Post by Retric »

55555 wrote: post #35
mikeash wrote: post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

> But what's weird is not the fact that we don't constantly kill ourselves at the first sign of trouble, what's weird is the fact that we do sometimes kill ourselves when things look completely hopeless. I think hope plays a big part. We don't kill ourselves because we have hope. If we are suffering and have no hope, that's a recipe for suicide.

Being extremely depressed actually reduces short term risks of suicide because planning shuts down. It's the middle ground where things are bad, but people can still think that has the highest risks.*

*Excluding hospital assisted suicide where someone OD's on pain medication under end of life pain.

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