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Why do so few humans kill themselves?

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Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#61

Post by sinxoveretothex »

StavrosK wrote: post #31
hasenj wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how much your children need you actually. I've read somewhere that part of the reason women lose ability to bear children past around 40 is so they can take care of their grand children because that is usually more important at that point from an evolutionary point of view. It might have been a mere speculation but it kind of makes sense. Rather than take the time to bare and raise one child, that time is…

I dislike these kinds of explanations because they seem like ex post facto rationalizations. An explanation that could have gone both ways explains nothing: * Women stop having children after 40 because it's more important to raise the children you already have. * Women don't stop having children after 40 because bearing more offspring increases your chances of survival. Your explanation barely makes sense even on it…

> It's illogical to design a system that can pop out one baby every nine months

To design? Are you a creationist?

Assuming you're just confused, evolution doesn't "design" life. It's just a "whatever works" process.

For example, angler fish have a lure that resembles prey for their prey. This has been selected by the eyes of their prey. It's not that the prey wanted their predator to fool them, it's just that angler fish with bad lures starved and died off.

In the case of humans, if what your parent comment suggests is true, then it would just be that some women had some sort of defect where they couldn't give birth after some point and that turned out to give their grandchildren an advantage over the grandchildren of women without the defect. Over a long period of time, more and more descendants with defective reproduction genetics would survive compared to those without and so it becomes prevalent.

That's how evolution works.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#62

Post by Practicality »

mikeash wrote: post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

In addition to a desire to live, not everyone views suffering as the worst possible thing.

If I had to be in serious pain every day but could keep doing many things I would rather keep living with the pain. The loss in experience is worse than any level of pain.

For the obvious counterpoint: I say that from experience not naivete. I've had a nerve in my hand accidentally sliced lengthwise (for a significant length) by a surgeon. The pain was so excruciating they had to put me under before I had a heart attack (heart rate+blood pressure both went off the charts, 290bpm)

However, before that happened I was much more interested in what was going on and how unique this level of pain was. It was fascinating. Prior to that I didn't really know how much pain it was possible to feel.

Anyway the point is, not everyone is afraid of pain and suffering. Especially not to the point that suicide would even be considered.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#63

Post by mikeash »

spdustin wrote: post #53
mikeash wrote: post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

It is said that pain is a fact, a by-product of life and the human condition. But suffering is a choice. Many simply choose not to suffer with their pain.

What a terrifying sentiment. I'm astonished at how attracted people are to theories where problems are necessarily the fault of the person experiencing them. Hey, if you're suffering, there's an easy solution: just choose not to! Gee, why didn't I ever think of that.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#64

Post by hasenj »

StavrosK wrote: post #31
hasenj wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how much your children need you actually. I've read somewhere that part of the reason women lose ability to bear children past around 40 is so they can take care of their grand children because that is usually more important at that point from an evolutionary point of view. It might have been a mere speculation but it kind of makes sense. Rather than take the time to bare and raise one child, that time is…

I dislike these kinds of explanations because they seem like ex post facto rationalizations. An explanation that could have gone both ways explains nothing: * Women stop having children after 40 because it's more important to raise the children you already have. * Women don't stop having children after 40 because bearing more offspring increases your chances of survival. Your explanation barely makes sense even on it…

I actually partially agree with you but for a slightly different reason. It seems like an unfalsifiable claim that rests solely on intuition and the notion that you can: "well just think about it, it all makes sense!"

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#65

Post by hasenj »

a3n wrote: post #43
hasenj wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I've often contemplated about it. I don't think I want to live past 80. I mean unless there would be a medical revolution where you can retain youth or slow down aging significantly.

Get back to us when you turn 80. :) People's experience change their perspective. What's important to you now will change. What you're able to appreciate changes.

I actually used to have that limit set to 60, but then when I thought about it, I probably would still have some physical strength at 60 and still wouldn't want to die. But at 80 I can't imagine myself being other than a total wreck.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#66

Post by Ntrails »

antris wrote: post #59
spdustin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is said that pain is a fact, a by-product of life and the human condition. But suffering is a choice. Many simply choose not to suffer with their pain.

A depressed mind doesn't work like that. For a depressed person, their brain is constantly torturing them, and the depressed point of view seems much more real. "You can choose to pretend you're happy like the rest, but you know how life really goes."

I think you missed the point, the way to "not suffer" is death.

In general every morning we make a decision on whether the expected future happiness is going to outweigh the expected future suffering. When that fails (and it does) we find reasons of duty to keep going, for the people we love etc. You're right, depressed people have a skewed vision of the future and it destroys their expectations of happiness.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#67

Post by pluma »

hasenj wrote: post #27
jokoon wrote: post #20

Easy answer: because we want to believe life is precious and that you only live once. Mental health is taboo. I'm not trying to say that we should let people die, but the living standard has really skyrocketed, meanwhile we still have behaviors and systems that do damage to mental health, and we still disregard those problems.

I think actually it's because we fear death. Even if you're an atheist and know that when you die nothing will happen besides you disappearing, you still don't want to do it. Even people who commit suicide often would rather if they didn't have to use that option. The worst thing about war in my opinion is not just that people die, but that people live in constant fear of death.

> Even if you're an atheist

I really don't understand this sentiment. Surely belief in an afterlife is a far greater motivator to off yourself than not? It's only religions that threaten you with eternal suffering if you do that would act as a special deterrent (easily eliminating all religions that don't have a concept of hell). Especially if you consider that some of those even go out of their way to make exceptions for certain forms of murder-suicide ("suicide attacks").

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#68

Post by spdustin »

mikeash wrote: post #63
spdustin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is said that pain is a fact, a by-product of life and the human condition. But suffering is a choice. Many simply choose not to suffer with their pain.

What a terrifying sentiment. I'm astonished at how attracted people are to theories where problems are necessarily the fault of the person experiencing them. Hey, if you're suffering, there's an easy solution: just choose not to! Gee, why didn't I ever think of that.

I think I took something different from it than others are.

Many people choose not to suffer, because "suicide is an option". Or pills. Or therapy. Or, the lucky ones, they can switch it off.

Depression (noted in another comment) further limits the ways by which one can control the suffering brought on by pain. I know this well. Many of us do.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#69

Post by johnward »

ultramancool wrote: post #39
_jgvg wrote: post #23

Maybe we should just add lithium to the water supply, although that would drive conspiracy theorists crazy! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579 "Using data for 27 Texas counties from 1978-1987, it is shown that the incidence rates of suicide, homicide, and rape are significantly higher in counties whose drinking water supplies contain little or no lithium than in counties with water lithium levels ranging from…

You'd be literally adding chemicals to change people's brain chemistry to the water. The conspiracy theorists would be pretty justified I'd say. I think this is the sort of thing you should really decide for yourself individually.

What about all those cancer causing chemicals we allow companies to dump into the water or fluoride? I guess the conspiracy theorists are already onto fluoride.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#70

Post by pritambaral »

Jedd wrote: post #11
pritambaral wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paper does not draw a causation, nor does the article. The paper asks a question, and the article tries to think along the lines of the question and asks some more. ---- > I think the answers are pretty obvious. Most people don't kill themselves because they don't want to. That is a simple conclusion, indeed; and it's not wrong either. The article tries to reason how that conclusion came to be. People who have ha…

> The paper does not draw a causation, nor does the article. It does draw a conclusion: > Indeed, there appears to be a slight elevated risk > of suicide in people taking some antidepressants, > especially young people. But the effect is tiny. > And some people do think antidepressants relieve > suffering. If depression caused suicide, treating > depression should reduce suicide rates, but of > course it hasn’t. This…

That is not causation, is it?
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