Why do so few humans kill themselves? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#51

Post by sevenless » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:08 PM UTC

paulcole wrote: post #24

libeclipse wrote: post #12

According to the link, around 1 in 100 people commit suicide. It could be argued that this is a rather high number. Certainly any other diseases that achieved this would receive significant attention. What is interesting however, is how suicide rates haven't changed with other things like medical improvements and improvements to quality of life.

I think you're vastly overestimating how much people care. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm Check out, Chronic lower respiratory diseases at nearly 4x suicide. Can't remember hearing a thing about that in the news.

It's also a killer of younger people. I'd bet suicide accounts for more life-years lost.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#52

Post by tmcpro » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:09 PM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #28

tmcpro wrote: post #25

the highest suicide rate is among people 85 years or older. With the advancement of healthcare people are living longer. So the rate of suicide amongst younger demographics most likely has declined slightly

Interesting. I've often contemplated about it. I don't think I want to live past 80. I mean unless there would be a medical revolution where you can retain youth or slow down aging significantly.

I think most people don't want to be a personal or financial burden to those they love when they reach that age.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#53

Post by spdustin » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

It is said that pain is a fact, a by-product of life and the human condition. But suffering is a choice. Many simply choose not to suffer with their pain.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#54

Post by sevenless » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:10 PM UTC

uuiiyyokthis wrote: post #17

eximius wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps. But it is also pedagogically valuable to ask "Why don't more people commit suicide?" We might learn something about the mental defence mechanism the brain employs.

Pedagogy /can/ go off the rails if it places other goals above the elimination of human killing. I know this is self-evident, however there are many hidden killers out there so consider this a billboard.

There's no ethical reason to oppose suicide, in general. Many cultures valorized it in certain situations.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#55

Post by PragmaticPulp » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:11 PM UTC

iaskwhy wrote: post #38

nibs wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407…

Are these available as supplements and, if so, is it safe to take them?

This may not apply to you, but I must mention it: Anyone suffering from suicidal ideation should seek professional help. These aren't the kinds of things you want to try to self-medicate away.

That said, there is a form of lithium that is available over the counter: Lithium Orotate. The amount of elemental lithium per dose is lower than you'll find in prescription lithium carbonate treatment, but you wouldn't want to attempt to self-medicate in to the prescription range anyway. Lithium has a notoriously narrow therapeutic window, and it would be too easy to dose yourself into the toxic range.

I've tried lithium orotoate myself out of curiosity for circadian rhythm modification. Although the dose is lower than that of prescription lithium, the effects and side effects were still palpable. Personally, I found no positive benefits but substantial cognitive slowing and general feelings of malaise. It's also worth noting that lithium is moderately toxic to the kidneys over time.

Having tried low-dose lithium orotate myself, I would never advocate for any amount of supplemental lithium in water supplies. Let's leave the medication to those who need it, rather than forcing it upon the entire population.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#56

Post by cedricr » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:15 PM UTC

hasenj wrote: post #18

tribune wrote: post #15

Remember that it's technically a valid evolutionary strategy to live to, say, 25, have a few kids, then off yourself. Suicide before reproduction is all that would be selected against.

Depends on how much your children need you actually. I've read somewhere that part of the reason women lose ability to bear children past around 40 is so they can take care of their grand children because that is usually more important at that point from an evolutionary point of view. It might have been a mere speculation but it kind of makes sense. Rather than take the time to bare and raise one child, that time is…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmother_hypothesis

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#57

Post by nibs » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:15 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #45

nibs wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407…

It's fine if you want to medicate yourself with lithium, but it's not acceptable to forcibly medicate everyone else. The studies you linked to show an interesting correlation between lithium in water supplies and reduced suicide levels, but you can't judge the net benefit on a single metric alone. Lithium is not without side effects, and it's unreasonable to suggest that the vast majority of the population that is ot…

Lithium is an element, not just a medication. The element is used to medicate people with bipolar, in huge dosages. You and I both consume lithium every day. We may consume slightly more or less than others. The ones who consume slightly more kill themselves significantly less, with no side effects. Lithium the medication is in 100-1000x the dosages, hence the side effects. If it is bad in high (but naturally occurring, and much lower than the medication) doses, we should filter it out.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#58

Post by tim333 » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:17 PM UTC

libeclipse wrote: post #12

According to the link, around 1 in 100 people commit suicide. It could be argued that this is a rather high number. Certainly any other diseases that achieved this would receive significant attention. What is interesting however, is how suicide rates haven't changed with other things like medical improvements and improvements to quality of life.

>significant attention

I think people are aware of it but it's a bit depressing to talk about given that solutions aren't easy. I can see it getting more coverage as other causes become less common in young people. It's the #1 cause for ages 15-45 in Australia for example (that's just the country that came up on random googling) http://www.aihw.gov.au/deaths/leading-causes-of-death/

I think it's more cheerful to give attention to making society happier and healthier which should have a knock on effect on the suicide rate.

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#59

Post by antris » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:18 PM UTC

spdustin wrote: post #53

mikeash wrote: post #19

While interesting, this article seems to ignore the possibility that most people simply have a very strong desire to live. It assumes that if someone is suffering, and death would end that suffering, then suicide makes sense, and something weird must be going on to make people keep going. But this really doesn't make sense. The entire concept of suffering exists merely to keep us alive. We experience pain and despair…

It is said that pain is a fact, a by-product of life and the human condition. But suffering is a choice. Many simply choose not to suffer with their pain.

A depressed mind doesn't work like that.

For a depressed person, their brain is constantly torturing them, and the depressed point of view seems much more real. "You can choose to pretend you're happy like the rest, but you know how life really goes."

Re: Why do so few humans kill themselves?

#60

Post by nibs » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:19 PM UTC

iaskwhy wrote: post #38

nibs wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made that argument in a prior thread and people were really, really against it. Despite the abundance of evidence, from that study and the Japanese one [1]. I think Zinc would make a good addition too re: suicide [2]. There are two other large scale studies like this for lithium, both confirming the findings. One from Greece [3] and one from Argentina (can't find it...) [1]: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19407…

Are these available as supplements and, if so, is it safe to take them?

Not meaningfully. I think PragmaticPulp captured it well. You can increase the amount of lithium you consume, but mostly what lithium does is improve B12 metabolism. Regardless of suicidal ideation status, taking B12 and improving diet/sleep would be better than taking lithium. B12 is consistently and significantly lower in those with clinical bipolar than controls, so it is the real problem. Superdosing lithium ensures an ideal environment for B12 metabolism, hence the benefits.