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Tom Wolfe takes on linguistics

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu

21–30 of 48 posts

Re: Tom Wolfe takes on linguistics

#21

How is Chomsky perceived on the field of linguistics today? My impression was that his theories are well respected, but recently I've come across several people dismissing his work as outdated and even wrong. Not sure whether this is just an attempt by people to denigrate him because of his political beliefs though.

I don't know who these people who claim that Chomsky is "wrong" are, but it sounds like coming from some newbies who just finished reading a couple of papers on machine learning, thinking they know the entire field of AI.

From my experience most people who say Chomsky is wrong have in most cases never actually read Chomsky's papers. Trust me it's really hard to finish any of his actual papers, even as someone who majored computational linguistics. I'm pretty sure 99% of people on this thread who are throwing around the term "generative linguistics" casually have no idea what it actually is in detail. Maybe they read some wikipedia article, maybe they watched a 45 minute Youtube video of some famous guy talking about it.

I see it as a same phenomenon as people criticizing that "Blue ocean" theory is wrong, "Black swan" theory is wrong, "Lean startups" theory is wrong, all without actually having read and thought about any of those books and basing their criticism on the shallow knowledge they picked up from blogs, which even I have been guilty of.

My thought: The approach by Chomsky and others in this field may not be in fashion nowadays, but it does provide a significant foundation on top of which many others build their theories. Also for these significant theories there is no "right" or "wrong", the whole point is the theory does exist and it gives us something to think about. Saying Karl Marx was wrong is a foolish thing to say because right or wrong is not what matters. Maybe thousands of years later in the future things may change and communism may end up becoming the perfect ideology for our society then. It's all contextual.

Re: Tom Wolfe takes on linguistics

#22
> KINGDOM OF SPEECH is a captivating, paradigm-shifting argument that speech — not evolution — is responsible for humanity's complex societies and achievements.

It's time to read the Old Testament story of the Tower of Babel once more. That's always been a fascinating story for me ... the notion that people were forming a real or virtual tower that threatened divine order and so needed to be split by making their speech mutually unintelligible.

Re: Tom Wolfe takes on linguistics

#23
> KINGDOM OF SPEECH is a captivating, paradigm-shifting argument that speech — not evolution — is responsible for humanity's complex societies and achievements.

It's time to read the Old Testament story of the Tower of Babel once more. That's always been a fascinating story for me ... the notion that people were forming a real or virtual tower that threatened divine order and so needed to be split by making their speech mutually unintelligible.

Re: Tom Wolfe takes on linguistics

#24
post #6

How is Chomsky perceived on the field of linguistics today? My impression was that his theories are well respected, but recently I've come across several people dismissing his work as outdated and even wrong. Not sure whether this is just an attempt by people to denigrate him because of his political beliefs though.

Generative linguistics is pretty isolated these days... chugging along but using a set of methodologies and premises that are pretty far removed from the rest of academia. Generative linguistics generally had trouble in two key areas 1) first language acquisition (where increasingly ornate innate machinery is needed to explain how kids arrive at the 'right' grammar) and 2) language processing, where the structural re…

> Chomsky is brilliant, no doubt, and critically showed the world how much latent structure there is in language. However, he is IMHO pretty wrong in thinking that this latent structure can't be learned (e.g. inferring a probabilistic context-free grammar).

Presumably you have a critique of his poverty of stimulus argument and not merely a blanket dismissal?

Re: Tom Wolfe takes on linguistics

#25
post #5
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generative linguistics is largely discredited these days. It has been out of fashion for a little while, but the last few years have seen studies that more concretely disprove it.

As a generative linguist I don't really see this. Popular perceptions fluctuate, but the field is still carrying on more or less the same. Nothing in particular has been discovered in the past few years that would give anyone cause to abandon generative linguistics.

[deleted]

Re: Tom Wolfe takes on linguistics

#26

How is Chomsky perceived on the field of linguistics today? My impression was that his theories are well respected, but recently I've come across several people dismissing his work as outdated and even wrong. Not sure whether this is just an attempt by people to denigrate him because of his political beliefs though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistics_Wars

Re: Tom Wolfe takes on linguistics

#27
If you are a hacker who is interested in linguistics, you might want to check out the work we are doing at my startup Ozora Research (http://ozoraresearch.com).

Our goal is to build high-quality, sophisticated NLP solutions for "cleantext" : text that has been professionally written and copy-edited, so that it doesn't have obvious errors of spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc.

What makes our work different is that, unlike almost all other research in NLP, we don't depend on human-annotated data (like the Penn TreeBank) for training and evaluation. Instead, we build our models into lossless data compressors, and evaluate by invoking the compressor on a large text corpus.

In addition to this change in evaluation methodology, we are also deeply interested in the empirical study of text - that is, in the questions of traditional syntax research. For example, an important part of English syntax relates to verb argument structure: verbs differ in the types of arguments they can accept. Some verbs can accept infinitive complements, that-complements, or indirect objects; others cannot. Our system contains a module that handles argument structure and forwards this information to the parser and compressor.

I wrote a book presenting a rationale for why scientists should be deeply interested in large-scale, lossless data compression. Roughly, empirical data compression research is a variation of the scientific method: if theory A achieves better compression than theory B, then A is closer to the truth. Scientists can use this principle to search systematically through theory-space and find high-quality theories.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1104.5466

Interestingly, compression has a direct link to generation. By sending random bits into the decompressor, you obtain sample sentences that illustrate the model's "idea" of what English text looks like. By studying the discrepancy between the sample sentences and real text, you can discover ways to improve the model. This is a very productive technique that we use routinely. Chomsky declared that his goal was to build a machine that generates grammatical English sentences, but none of his followers actually tried to build such a device. So in some sense our research is actually closer to Chomsky's stated goal than what Chomsky's followers are doing.

I would love to hear from people who might want to collaborate on linguistics work, or use the data compression idea to explore other fields (eg. computer vision, bioinformatics, astronomy).

Re: Tom Wolfe takes on linguistics

#28

How is Chomsky perceived on the field of linguistics today? My impression was that his theories are well respected, but recently I've come across several people dismissing his work as outdated and even wrong. Not sure whether this is just an attempt by people to denigrate him because of his political beliefs though.

My training is in language variation, and I specialized in sociophonetics, so I'm not an expert on syntax, but my understanding is that whenever chomsky's theories are empirically tested on real language data, they don't seem to hold water and he has to go back to the drawing board.

Re: Tom Wolfe takes on linguistics

#29

How is Chomsky perceived on the field of linguistics today? My impression was that his theories are well respected, but recently I've come across several people dismissing his work as outdated and even wrong. Not sure whether this is just an attempt by people to denigrate him because of his political beliefs though.

I don't know who these people who claim that Chomsky is "wrong" are, but it sounds like coming from some newbies who just finished reading a couple of papers on machine learning, thinking they know the entire field of AI. From my experience most people who say Chomsky is wrong have in most cases never actually read Chomsky's papers. Trust me it's really hard to finish any of his actual papers, even as someone who maj…

I'd say his research methods are wrong. Limiting your research to so-called competent speakers is cherry picking data, in my view.

Re: Tom Wolfe takes on linguistics

#30

How is Chomsky perceived on the field of linguistics today? My impression was that his theories are well respected, but recently I've come across several people dismissing his work as outdated and even wrong. Not sure whether this is just an attempt by people to denigrate him because of his political beliefs though.

No, this has nothing to do with his political views.

Chomsky's work is still seen as something of a foundation of modern linguistics and it's still taught in basic classes at university. It's also been very seminal in that it's brought about a vast array of models and theories that build upon it, including modern models such as the various phrase structure grammars (HPSG for instance).

However, the world of linguistics has changed quite a bit since the 1960s and through areas such as NLP and statistical models in particular we have a far better understanding of the building blocks of human language. Chomsky appears to be somewhat desperately trying to keep up with these changes and accommodate them in his models, which in turn have grown vastly more complex over the years compared with his original simple and elegant x' theory. In recent years, he also comes across as quite stubborn regarding his rejection of statistic models and machine learning.

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