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UK surveillance bill includes powers to limit end-to-end encryption

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Re: UK surveillance bill includes powers to limit end-to-end encryption

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't state facts that go against the hivemind here, otherwise a downvote will occur.

It's demonstrably not a fact, and it doesn't add to the discussion. Add constructively to the discussion and contrary opinions are not only tolerated, but engaged.

The comment is factual. It's not relevant who owns the cameras.

Look at any major incident in the UK recently and the police have CCTV footage from private businesses. Either voluntarily given or subpoenaed.

Re: UK surveillance bill includes powers to limit end-to-end encryption

#93
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it reduced the number of attacks by, say, 20% would it be worth it?

Where did you get that number? And "20% reduction" is meaningless without saying 20% of what. Like, 20% reduction of a 1/1000000 chance is not the same as a 20% reduction of a 1/3 chance. There are two common fallacies I see here. The first happens a lot with interpreting carcinogenicity or toxicity studies, where an X% increase/decrease is quoted without an absolute value. The second happens in the stereotypical sta…

It is a completely made up number. If your argument against increased surveillance is based on its ineffectiveness, then there has to be a level of effectiveness where you would agree that that it's acceptable.

Re: UK surveillance bill includes powers to limit end-to-end encryption

#94
post #53
post #24

I think this same logic that is purportedly the reasoning behind this bill would also require us to constantly record all of our vocal communications, as that would be the only way we could ensure that criminals could not have communications that aren't accessible to law enforcement. This, of course, would require microphones on all citizens as well as many more in the surrounding environment, to ensure communication…

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, because complaining about intrusions on our privacy and how ineffective they are, has become de rigeur on HN and Reddit without much dissent. There clearly is a security problem in Europe at the moment, and I'm assuming that the attacks are not being organised by the security services. So will this bill reduce, increase or have no effect on the attacks? If not, then what would…

A free society cannot stop attacks by (for example) driving a vehicle at a crowd.

There is no magic solution but there are plenty of solutions proposed in fear and panic that would destroy the very things they purport to defend.

Even if it would work, is it worth living under tyranny to defeat terrorism?

Re: UK surveillance bill includes powers to limit end-to-end encryption

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's demonstrably not a fact, and it doesn't add to the discussion. Add constructively to the discussion and contrary opinions are not only tolerated, but engaged.

The comment is factual. It's not relevant who owns the cameras. Look at any major incident in the UK recently and the police have CCTV footage from private businesses. Either voluntarily given or subpoenaed.

The comment was:

    > UK is being watched by a
    > network of 1.85m CCTV cameras.
It's not a network - the comment was not factually correct. I was answering the question and explaining my understanding of a likely cause for the downvotes - I personally did not downvote it.

Re: UK surveillance bill includes powers to limit end-to-end encryption

#96
post #53
post #24

I think this same logic that is purportedly the reasoning behind this bill would also require us to constantly record all of our vocal communications, as that would be the only way we could ensure that criminals could not have communications that aren't accessible to law enforcement. This, of course, would require microphones on all citizens as well as many more in the surrounding environment, to ensure communication…

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, because complaining about intrusions on our privacy and how ineffective they are, has become de rigeur on HN and Reddit without much dissent. There clearly is a security problem in Europe at the moment, and I'm assuming that the attacks are not being organised by the security services. So will this bill reduce, increase or have no effect on the attacks? If not, then what would…

> So will this bill reduce, increase or have no effect on the attacks? If not, then what would reduce the attacks and why are the authorities not doing it already? If it will reduce the attacks, how much does it have to reduce them before we accept the intrusion on privacy as a necessary evil?

France has the most draconian laws of any Western country atm and there is no evidence attacks in France have been reduced.

They currently hold the false belief that the reason attacks succeed is because they are handled primarily via encryption.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151118/08474732854/after...

> The reports note that Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the "mastermind" of both the Paris attacks and a thwarted Belgium attack ten months ago, failed to use any encryption whatsoever (read: existing capabilities stopped the Belgium attacks and could have stopped the Paris attacks, but didn't). That's of course not to say batshit religious cults like ISIS don't use encryption, and won't do so going forward. Everybody uses encryption. But the point remains that to use a tragedy to vilify encryption, push for surveillance expansion, and pass backdoor laws that will make everybody less safe -- is nearly as gruesome as the attacks themselves.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/16/world/europe/attack-in-nic...

> For all the years of worry that terrorists would develop more sophisticated methods, Thursday’s attack in Nice realized a fear that turned out to be far worse: a form of violence so crude that it renders many of our usual defenses useless.

These aren't sophisticated people and they've correctly determined the government isn't capable of stopping attacks via communication mechanisms they actively monitor.

Re: UK surveillance bill includes powers to limit end-to-end encryption

#97
post #85
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a data level, you are more likely to die or be injured in a politically-motivated attack today than you were 10 years ago. Attacks are now more frequent, more geographically dispersed, and more deadly - even if only on a very small percentage level. Even if it's not a problem today (in your opinion), then either that trend has to be reversed or it will become a problem at some point.

Can you provide the source of your data about the risk of dying?

For most of the last 20 years, fatalities in terrorist attacks in (Western) Europe were in single figures. There were three exceptions - the Madrid trains in 2004, London bombings in 2005, and the Oslo shootings in 2011.

See http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/11/daily-c...

Last year, that increased to around 100, this time based on 2 attacks (both in Paris, France).

So far this year, there have been nearly 300 fatalities over 9 separate incidents: http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-europe-terror-2016...

Correction: there were around 170 fatalities in 2015, and there have been around 150 so far in 2016.

Re: UK surveillance bill includes powers to limit end-to-end encryption

#98
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. It takes 10 minutes to find a hardware store shopping list and bomb recipe. Even then, a lot of ingredients can be purchased over time without raising any flags. Buy bleach at one store and ammonia at another, say you're cleaning if anybody asks, then find a public place to mix the two. Once someone decides to kill a lot of people, it's already too late. There is no, repeat, no way to prevent every mass murde…

It sounds like you're saying that because it can't be 100% effective, we shouldn't do it at all. You could say the same about having a lock for your front door, but I bet you've got one.

I have a lock so that if I am burgled my insurance will pay out.

Re: UK surveillance bill includes powers to limit end-to-end encryption

#99
post #24

I think this same logic that is purportedly the reasoning behind this bill would also require us to constantly record all of our vocal communications, as that would be the only way we could ensure that criminals could not have communications that aren't accessible to law enforcement. This, of course, would require microphones on all citizens as well as many more in the surrounding environment, to ensure communication…

Tetrep, your comparison with vocal speech absolutely nails it. Just because the medium has changed, there is no justification for total surveillance. Few 50+ years old mainstream politicians see it that way.

Re: UK surveillance bill includes powers to limit end-to-end encryption

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. Every time I bring that up, I get down-voted due to the cognitive dissonance that folks have with their fondle-slabs. Now people are being conditioned to think it's normal for their microphone to always be on.

Are there any good low-tech ways to disable them similar to tape over the camera? Not sure if tape alone would be sufficient to block audio.

Stick a neodymium magnet next to it, joking please don't do that
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