Don't add your 2 cents • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#201

Post by nimblegorilla » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 3:28 PM UTC

torrent-of-ions wrote: post #116

thenomad wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be missing the authority dynamic here. If your co-worker looks at a designed object and says "needs more blue, change the word "giant"", that's feedback which you can then incorporate, but can also reject if you think it doesn't help the project. If your direct boss says the same thing, and you don't have the understanding with them that you are totally free to ignore their feedback, you'll have somewhere bet…

OK, I agree that the boss's opinion is different. But then this should be more about how a boss can deliver criticism in a way in which it is not taken as a command. Because the article is pretty much saying that the boss cannot offer any criticism at all which is ridiculous.

The article deals with this: "Obviously, if there’s more than “2 cents” worth of stuff that needs to change, then this rule does not apply."

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#202

Post by beambot » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 3:29 PM UTC

noxToken wrote: post #163

onion2k wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the key difference between my experience and this article, though, is that the article seems to be mostly focused in a non-technical boss commenting on benign/arbitrary opinions (like shades of color), rather than a technically skilled superior commenting on his area of expertise. The article is referring to things that are ostensibly subjective changes that don't make a tangible, measurable difference. The s…

I think the employee-boss relationship is a factor as well. Generally speaking, superiors should be able to make constructive criticisms to their subordinates without it impacting morale in a negative manner. That makes criticism a two way street. Bosses must make sure that they're not all critic with no praise. No one wants to be critiqued all the time without kudos for the good portions and hard work. Tone, body la…

One-word redline => 10 minutes of billable hours.

::Shakes fist:: lawyers! ;-)

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#203

Post by exelius » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 3:29 PM UTC

haasn wrote: post #142

I can't agree with this article at all. From my experience on contributing to FOSS projects, I feel much better when somebody senior makes adjustments to my code rather than leaving it as-is. Not only does it tell me that they actually read my code and spot errors (the added bug safety net makes it much less stressful for me to write new code), but it also makes me feel like I'm learning something new that I wouldn't…

Situational leadership :) Adapt your leadership style to the skills and confidence of those you are leading.

In a situation where your subordinates are unsure of what to do and they really don't have the skills to do it alone, you have to provide leadership and encouragement. Lead by example, show them how to do it, and let them iterate without too much micromanagement.

When your subordinates are competent but lacking confidence, it's often a better option to stand back and say nothing. The "ownership" piece is huge -- if this is the first big project you've "owned", you'll probably iron out the kinks even if I don't say anything to you. Also keep in mind is that there are many correct ways to solve a problem; while your solution may not be the one I would go with, you're more comfortable with your solution and can probably see things about it that I can't. I trust you to be the expert on the solution; I've got bigger things to worry about like how I'm going to continue servicing my same workload with a 10% cut in budget.

The goal is to move everyone up from "unconfident and incompetent" to "confident and competent". Some people also go through "incompetent and confident", which is also something where the best option is often to stand back and act as a safety net while letting the person learn whatever lesson they needed to learn.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#204

Post by odbol_ » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 3:33 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #148

haasn wrote: post #142

I can't agree with this article at all. From my experience on contributing to FOSS projects, I feel much better when somebody senior makes adjustments to my code rather than leaving it as-is. Not only does it tell me that they actually read my code and spot errors (the added bug safety net makes it much less stressful for me to write new code), but it also makes me feel like I'm learning something new that I wouldn't…

I guess the key difference between my experience and this article, though, is that the article seems to be mostly focused in a non-technical boss commenting on benign/arbitrary opinions (like shades of color), rather than a technically skilled superior commenting on his area of expertise. The article is referring to things that are ostensibly subjective changes that don't make a tangible, measurable difference. The s…

The trick is to frame it as a question, so the original creator "solves" the problem on their own and thinks it's their idea. E.g. Instead of saying "make this blue darker", you ask "this might be hard to read on a lighter background. What can we do to fix that?"

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#205

Post by jsprogrammer » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 3:35 PM UTC

The boss should not say, "it's perfect!", if the boss feels it is not....which is literally what this article is advocating.

In the hypothetical situation described, I get the impression that the boss didn't even look closely at the two weeks worth of work. To then get immediate flattery feels very disingenuous to me.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#206

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 3:39 PM UTC

megablast wrote: post #46

jasonkester wrote: post #37

I like the way Joel Spolsky describes managers taking this even further at Microsoft back in the day. They wanted to make sure the engineers knew that they were the ones designing the software, to the point where they would refuse to even step in and resolve a conflict between two engineers about the design. Even when those two engineers came up and asked for help resolving said conflict. Now you've got three people…

Right, but you have the engineer saying that is not important, and the designer saying this is the most important part of the software and we might as well not do it at all. This is where you need a decision from someone else.

Not necessarily. One of them may be right, or neither of them. Surely someone who says X is unimportant or that X the most important part of the software can prove it with data/measurement?

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#207

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 3:45 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #192

codingdave wrote: post #189

Your boss' opinion might not be better... but it often does have more authority. In my case, I work directly for the president of the company. He owns the place, he founded it, he built it, it is his. Whether or not his opinion is better, it does hold complete authority, and it is his right to have his company run his way. Now, if you are a low/mid-level manager, the advice from the article may be more applicable to…

Speaking as someone who has been "the technical guy" for 20-odd years, if the president of the company wants to pick nits like variable names and coding style, he's perfectly within his rights to do so. But he can do it without me.

I've worked for those "I'm the CEO, do it my way" guys. They hire you for your brain but end up only wanting to use your fingers.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#208

Post by SudoNhim » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 3:55 PM UTC

Huh... approaching this from the opposite side, when my boss has suggestions I always take it as an opportunity to let them feel some ownership of the work, even on occasions where the suggestions don't turn out to be that useful in practice ("I implemented your suggestion of X, which led me to come up with Y").

Trying to game professional relationships goes both ways I guess :)

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#209

Post by collyw » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

Gustomaximus wrote: post #34

Something a very smart person advised me was to "Tell people what you want, not what to do" It sounds so simple yet is surprisingly hard to practice. It really puts the onus on you to think carefully about outcomes you desire and explain it clearly.

To me that is a lot of the skill I have learned over the years, trying to figure out what people are trying to do when they say they need something. User suggested solutions are usually not the best.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#210

Post by al_biglan » Mon, Jul 25, 2016, 4:16 PM UTC

tobtoh wrote: post #102

As a manager, I tend to frame my feedback/opinions as 'Have you considered ?' or 'Can you explain your thinking behind this ?' Doing it this way, I get an understanding of their rationale and if I still think my idea is good, I can debate the worthiness of it against my employees reasoning. I feel this approach fosters a 'best idea wins' rather than a 'manager opinion trumps all'. I agree with Derek's implied point t…

Was going to reply along the same lines. Much better is asking questions like "Why did you choose this shade of blue?" Which leads to improved understanding from both parties: The color may be more important than the original selection merited, or the selection was chosen specifically for reasons that the Manager wasn't aware. In general phrasing this as a dialog where the Manager (expert or no) and the Do-er both work to educate each other. "Did you consider X2?" becomes a valuable question if you think the implementation selection of X1 is "incorrect" or "sub-optimal"