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Tips for launching a startup while holding a day job

entrepreneur.venturebeat.com

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Re: Tips for launching a startup while holding a day job

#21

Post by dsplittgerber »

alexro wrote: post #19
pw0ncakes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stupid question: if your startup gets sued over something like this, why not have the company declare bankruptcy, dissolve it, and start a new company in the same idea with some of the same employees? (If you have investors who'd get burned in this process, tell them that they can avoid this fate if they commit sufficient resources to win the lawsuit; if they do, then this is the best possibility.) It seems like it w…

It's pretty much how it happens in the real world. Remember how facebook started with the connectu code base?

Not exactly. It comes down to the other party not being able to prove that it was their code or that they were in violation of the other party's IP. The longer the other party waits with suing you, the more chances you have of getting off the hook. It happened with the German (code+design) clone of Facebook as well. FB waited for far too long before suing, now they basically lost the case.

Re: Tips for launching a startup while holding a day job

#22

Post by pw0ncakes »

alain94040 wrote: post #18
pw0ncakes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stupid question: if your startup gets sued over something like this, why not have the company declare bankruptcy, dissolve it, and start a new company in the same idea with some of the same employees? (If you have investors who'd get burned in this process, tell them that they can avoid this fate if they commit sufficient resources to win the lawsuit; if they do, then this is the best possibility.) It seems like it w…

Because the lawsuit would include you, the defendant, personally, and not just your shell company? [quick legal advice: if a trick sounds too easy, it probably won't hold in court]

Because the lawsuit would include you, the defendant, personally, and not just your shell company?

I don't know if this would work, having never had to do it, and it's extremely unlikely that I ever will, but then I'd hire someone to put severe pressure on decision-makers at the plantiff and make it very clear that they don't want to dance this way. Hiring a "pro negotiator" of this sort is expensive, but cheaper than losing a company, a livelihood, and having future wages garnished.

When legal action becomes unaffordable and favors the rich, people will resort to illegal action. And I don't fear death enough that I'd let someone disrespect me in such a way without taking his own fall.

[quick legal advice: if a trick sounds too easy, it probably won't hold in court]

This I doubt, given that the vast majority of white-collar crime never leads to an indictment, and the penalties are so minor relative to the rewards that it persists in spades. (This is not to say I'd advise white-collar crime, the vast majority of which is utterly unethical and dishonorable scumbaggery. I'm only saying that the vast majority of criminals in our society get away with it.)

Re: Tips for launching a startup while holding a day job

#23

Post by imp »

pw0ncakes wrote: post #16
dsplittgerber wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but from a legal point of view, this is just really bad advice. There can be legal consequences, please consult with a lawyer about IP stuff, your employment contract and if they can later sue you for breach of contract etc. It really depends on your jurisdiction, though.

I know I shouldn't be reviving a deleted post, but I'm actually curious about how people get caught doing this (crediting an untethered co-founder for their work). It seems like, if you use resources that are unambiguously possessed by him, it would be impossible to prove that you wrote the code.

It doesn't really matter what proof you have. If your employer is suspicious and takes you to court, you've already lost. If you have tens of thousands of dollars to spend on legal fees in order to prove your point, then I guess this advice doesn't apply to you.

Re: Tips for launching a startup while holding a day job

#24

Post by dsplittgerber »

pw0ncakes wrote: post #16
dsplittgerber wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but from a legal point of view, this is just really bad advice. There can be legal consequences, please consult with a lawyer about IP stuff, your employment contract and if they can later sue you for breach of contract etc. It really depends on your jurisdiction, though.

I know I shouldn't be reviving a deleted post, but I'm actually curious about how people get caught doing this (crediting an untethered co-founder for their work). It seems like, if you use resources that are unambiguously possessed by him, it would be impossible to prove that you wrote the code.

Simplified, I think it has to do with the burden of proof (may depend on jurisdiction). So your employer tells the court that he can prove (logs) that you developed some code at your workplace, then 'stole' that code, which is your employer's intellectual property, and went ahead with your own startup, doing suspiciously similar things. Now it's basically your problem of how to prove that it's not like that.

Re: Tips for launching a startup while holding a day job

#25

Post by pw0ncakes »

dsplittgerber wrote: post #20
pw0ncakes wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stupid question: if your startup gets sued over something like this, why not have the company declare bankruptcy, dissolve it, and start a new company in the same idea with some of the same employees? (If you have investors who'd get burned in this process, tell them that they can avoid this fate if they commit sufficient resources to win the lawsuit; if they do, then this is the best possibility.) It seems like it w…

Investors most probably won't invest in your company at all if they know you probably will have significant IP trouble. Law suits are money-dumps, which is why the small guy never seems to win. They drop out earlier or stop from the beginning because they just don't have the funds. No investor will invest in you if e.g. 50% of his funds are going to be used for law suits. Also, if your employer has IP over your idea/…

Wouldn't the adversary need a patent first to own a process?

Code can be re-written, and I'd argue that it absolutely should be in such a case.

And obviously, using company resources for the side project is both idiotic and unethical. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the case where someone writes something entirely on his own time and gets sued because of a coves-all-hours contract that effectively placed him in indentured servitude (and that shouldn't be allowed to exist in the first place).

Re: Tips for launching a startup while holding a day job

#26

Post by vdoma »

On a related note, is it okay to pick up skills related to your side project at work? For example, if my side project is building a application in Clojure, is it okay to learn about Clojure at work? Of course, not at the expense of getting actual work work done, but there's always time between builds, etc. So instead of playing Foosball or surfing the internet, can one actually do something more productive, even though it's unrelated to the current work you are doing?

Re: Tips for launching a startup while holding a day job

#27

Post by pw0ncakes »

dsplittgerber wrote: post #24
pw0ncakes wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know I shouldn't be reviving a deleted post, but I'm actually curious about how people get caught doing this (crediting an untethered co-founder for their work). It seems like, if you use resources that are unambiguously possessed by him, it would be impossible to prove that you wrote the code.

Simplified, I think it has to do with the burden of proof (may depend on jurisdiction). So your employer tells the court that he can prove (logs) that you developed some code at your workplace, then 'stole' that code, which is your employer's intellectual property, and went ahead with your own startup, doing suspiciously similar things. Now it's basically your problem of how to prove that it's not like that.

Depressing, but seems accurate. Only a corporatist society, flirting with fascism, would place burden-of-proof on the employee-- what ever happened to presumed innocence?-- but I guess that's what we've come to.

Don't get me wrong. I'd never advise anyone to write side-project code at work. In addition to being unethical, it's also patently idiotic. I'm talking about the case where someone gets up at 5:00 am to write the side-project code on his own resources and then gets sued because his former company decides to be a scumbag.

Re: Tips for launching a startup while holding a day job

#28

Post by dirkstoop »

pw0ncakes wrote: post #25
dsplittgerber wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Investors most probably won't invest in your company at all if they know you probably will have significant IP trouble. Law suits are money-dumps, which is why the small guy never seems to win. They drop out earlier or stop from the beginning because they just don't have the funds. No investor will invest in you if e.g. 50% of his funds are going to be used for law suits. Also, if your employer has IP over your idea/…

Wouldn't the adversary need a patent first to own a process? Code can be re-written, and I'd argue that it absolutely should be in such a case. And obviously, using company resources for the side project is both idiotic and unethical. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the case where someone writes something entirely on his own time and gets sued because of a coves-all-hours contract that effectively place…

It's not so much about whether they're right or whether they'd be likely to win a lawsuit on merit, more about whether they're likely to sue.

Re: Tips for launching a startup while holding a day job

#29

Post by dnsworks »

patio11 wrote: post #5
wallflower wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lock my MacBook that I use to work on several side projects on my train commute to my work desk and plug it in to recharge it. I don't open up the lid. Is it ok to use the electricity (it's not the network)?

Buy a second battery and you'll never have to find out.

And remember to bring a small screwdriver, since Apple no longer feels that a battery should be changeable without tools.

Re: Tips for launching a startup while holding a day job

#30

Post by imajes »

wallflower wrote: post #4
vital101 wrote: post #2

The point about not using your day job's resources is important. Not only could you lose you day job, but your side project as well. Many times when you start working at an organization, they have you sign an agreement saying something like "We own everything that is produced on our machines, network, etc."

I lock my MacBook that I use to work on several side projects on my train commute to my work desk and plug it in to recharge it. I don't open up the lid. Is it ok to use the electricity (it's not the network)?

there's no earthly way that the employer has any rights over your work in this manner, assuming you can prove it's never opened during business hours. They may, however, have a claim against you for the cost of the electricity. :)
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