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Don't add your 2 cents

sivers.org

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Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#141

Post by ryanbrunner »

The way I've always tried to approach this is by pointing out problems, rather than offering solutions, especially where I'm in a position that I'm giving feedback to someone who is more of an expert in the activity than I am. Expressing things as problems automatically eliminates a lot of the minutiae about wording, color, etc. (since those are just subjective opinions and not reflective of a problem), and it lets people still feel like they're owning the work and not making changes they disagree with because they're forced to.

Example:

Providing solutions: "Move the 'widgets' menu to the top. And make it bold"

Expressing a problem: "So, when I'm using the app, one of the first things I usually want to do is look at my widgets. It took me a few minutes to find out how to do that."

The solution to this problem might be looking into whether accessing widgets is a common use case, or finding different ways of educating users about how to find widgets, or yes, even moving it to the top. But no matter which solution is chosen, everyone is going to come out of it with more information than if they blindly implemented the manager's uninformed opinion.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#142

Post by haasn »

I can't agree with this article at all. From my experience on contributing to FOSS projects, I feel much better when somebody senior makes adjustments to my code rather than leaving it as-is.

Not only does it tell me that they actually read my code and spot errors (the added bug safety net makes it much less stressful for me to write new code), but it also makes me feel like I'm learning something new that I wouldn't otherwise have. Finally, it inadvertently means that the rest of my code passed their “high” standards for quality, which is gratifying - especially for large commits in which I only need to change little.

I guess the key difference between my experience and this article, though, is that the article seems to be mostly focused in a non-technical boss commenting on benign/arbitrary opinions (like shades of color), rather than a technically skilled superior commenting on his area of expertise. That might explain why I have such a 180° reversal from this article's stance.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#143

Post by zouhair »

haasn wrote: post #142

I can't agree with this article at all. From my experience on contributing to FOSS projects, I feel much better when somebody senior makes adjustments to my code rather than leaving it as-is. Not only does it tell me that they actually read my code and spot errors (the added bug safety net makes it much less stressful for me to write new code), but it also makes me feel like I'm learning something new that I wouldn't…

I think both of you are right, if the Boss/Senior is more qualified in the subject at hand a 2 cent is more than welcome, the problem arise when the Boss/Senior is not more qualified.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#144

Post by fmavituna »

ZoFreX wrote: post #113
fmavituna wrote: post #25

If your team cannot take your feedback just like taking feedback from their colleagues, cannot argue with you or veto your idea easily with a legitimate response, take everything you said as a "command" then you have failed as a manager anyway. I assume Derek's advice makes sense for Korean culture where manager and team dynamics are different.

I've seen this happen over and over again in American culture. One of my most common pieces of feedback to managers centers on this, in fact. Time and time again I see managers who _think_ they are able to give feedback as "one of the team" and that they aren't "the boss" or giving people orders... but when you speak to their reports, they are interpreting it as orders from the boss. Even if you produce documents dec…

2 things:

* It's about how make the suggestion. "How about making this blue darker?" vs. "Do you think making this blue darker would give us more engagement? Are there any studies, or have we done A/B testing on this? I think it fits on our branding better because..." etc. Derek's example is really bad one though. Why would a manager (unless an experienced designer) would make such a pointless suggestion?

* If everything you say is just done without any sort of questioning then it's obvious there is a problem.

So I think any decent manager would notice it.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#145

Post by jhbadger »

Emperor Joseph II from Amadaeus: "My dear, young man, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all. Cut a few and it will be perfect!"

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#146

Post by brownegg »

haasn wrote: post #142

I can't agree with this article at all. From my experience on contributing to FOSS projects, I feel much better when somebody senior makes adjustments to my code rather than leaving it as-is. Not only does it tell me that they actually read my code and spot errors (the added bug safety net makes it much less stressful for me to write new code), but it also makes me feel like I'm learning something new that I wouldn't…

A senior/experienced person offering potentially-qualitatively-better "stuff" in the realm of something like code isn't the point. I'm sure there are exceptions, but in general no one is saying, "Let things be bad." If something would be a lot better, it's not two cents, it's two dollars.

The point is that when the difference is opinion (or close to), such as matters of color, font, position, etc., there is no reason to tweak things. If you're not going to make a big difference, don't make one at all.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#147

Post by moystard »

zouhair wrote: post #143
haasn wrote: post #142

I can't agree with this article at all. From my experience on contributing to FOSS projects, I feel much better when somebody senior makes adjustments to my code rather than leaving it as-is. Not only does it tell me that they actually read my code and spot errors (the added bug safety net makes it much less stressful for me to write new code), but it also makes me feel like I'm learning something new that I wouldn't…

I think both of you are right, if the Boss/Senior is more qualified in the subject at hand a 2 cent is more than welcome, the problem arise when the Boss/Senior is not more qualified.

The issue is that many will think themselves qualified. It would be too easy if the Boss/Senior in the case described in the article was aware of their non qualification in the domain.

I think the article is simply that if you are pushing for a very small change, one that would make not much difference, and is just a matter of opinion, then don't do it as it will impact negatively the original author.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#148

Post by onion2k »

haasn wrote: post #142

I can't agree with this article at all. From my experience on contributing to FOSS projects, I feel much better when somebody senior makes adjustments to my code rather than leaving it as-is. Not only does it tell me that they actually read my code and spot errors (the added bug safety net makes it much less stressful for me to write new code), but it also makes me feel like I'm learning something new that I wouldn't…

I guess the key difference between my experience and this article, though, is that the article seems to be mostly focused in a non-technical boss commenting on benign/arbitrary opinions (like shades of color), rather than a technically skilled superior commenting on his area of expertise.

The article is referring to things that are ostensibly subjective changes that don't make a tangible, measurable difference. The suggestions in question are often the boss putting their mark on something so demonstrate that they've made an impact.

Even if the suggestion actually improves the product, suggesting something that deflates team morale more than it brings to the design means the change isn't worth it. As a boss that's quite a hard lesson to learn because logic says you should be doing whatever you can to ship the best possible product. In reality, especially in the long term, the product is going to be better if you temper your suggestions in favour of the team.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#150

Post by syshum »

DecoPerson wrote: post #137
syshum wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This... I hate being slow rolled to idea or opinion.. If you have criticism about my work come out with it, I am not some delicate little snowflake, if there is better way I want to know.

You have less control over your mind than you believe you do. Guidance (or "slow rolling") helps with strong/deep learning and enables opportunities for conversation. If you trust your boss/coworker, considering letting them continue when they start such discussions. If you don't trust them or feel frustrated/patronised while they're talking, then you have other issues...

I view employment different than most people I have found anyway

Trust has nothing at all to do with it, nor does ownership as the article implies as I do not own any of the idea's or work I produce for my employer. That is the purpose of my employment, I trade my skills, knowledge and experience for currency.

My employer trusts my boss that is the only Trust that is required, I give my input based on how I see things, if they accept it great, if they want to go another route or use a different idea that is fine as well.

I do not have these types of emotional attachments to my work

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