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Don't add your 2 cents

sivers.org

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Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#71

Post by derefr »

timv wrote: post #58
marklgr wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Sivers can make the distinction between commenting on some draft wirh feedback welcome and a demo of some feature about to be released.

I'm sure he can, but he didn't write this post in order to inform himself, he wrote it for others to read and learn from. My personal & anecdotal experience has been that there are just as many managers who fail to engage well with draft-work as there are those who want to chip in their 2 cents on everything. There is definitely a class of managers who think they're offering encouragement but are so focused on the en…

Or, to put what you just said another way: when evaluating advice, you should assume it's going to be interpreted by incompetents. Competent people filter advice they hear through their learned intuition, which turns most advice, good or bad, into good advice. Incompetent people, meanwhile, will at best apply your advice exactly as written. The only real point in advice, then, is helping incompetent people.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#73

Post by iopq »

ojosilva wrote: post #57

I find the advice highly condescending. > Because of that small change, that person no longer feels full ownership of their project. What kind of person is that who 1) thinks the ownership is 100% theirs when working in a team? 2) can't handle a little nitpicking? 3) feels it's less their work just because of a little change? 4) can't defend their work and resist those 2c? This is advice for managing 2 year olds. As…

It's a good example. Sometimes bosses will go even further than that and suggest changes that the employee feels are wrong. Then they argue about it. Then the boss says "I feel I'm right, and I hope I can convince you that this is the right decision, but you need to make the change now". That's the point where the employee feels like his input is worth nothing because he can't do anything against the boss's opinion and arguing was useless.

This is why a trivial example like this crystallizes the exact point: it's not worth micromanaging employees over some changes that are not that important.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#74

Post by derefr »

megablast wrote: post #46
jasonkester wrote: post #37

I like the way Joel Spolsky describes managers taking this even further at Microsoft back in the day. They wanted to make sure the engineers knew that they were the ones designing the software, to the point where they would refuse to even step in and resolve a conflict between two engineers about the design. Even when those two engineers came up and asked for help resolving said conflict. Now you've got three people…

Right, but you have the engineer saying that is not important, and the designer saying this is the most important part of the software and we might as well not do it at all. This is where you need a decision from someone else.

I don't know if you need arbitration, there, so much as a willingness to allow each party to "pull in" others to help make their point. Like expert witnesses in a trial, but just for the sake of convincing.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#75

Post by iopq »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #70
derefr wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it's like SEO, where all the low-hanging fruit is obvious and sensible, but where further optimization beyond that point is stuff that looks really odd and counter-intuitive, or like it "couldn't possibly" have any impact. Maybe people put out a 1.0 units of effort when you're just a reasonable person, but put out e.g. 1.1 units when you baby them, and so babying them is a "win" in some sense?

>Maybe people put out a 1.0 units of effort when you're just a reasonable person, but put out e.g. 1.1 units when you baby them, and so babying them is a "win" in some sense? I'd contend that any worker that you have to "baby" in a business environment to get their best effort is a worker you are better off without.

That's not true. You could probably get better output out of most employees if you baby them just right. Who doesn't like a boss that lets them do whatever as long as it's beneficial to the company?

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#77

Post by dasboth »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #66
ojosilva wrote: post #57

I find the advice highly condescending. > Because of that small change, that person no longer feels full ownership of their project. What kind of person is that who 1) thinks the ownership is 100% theirs when working in a team? 2) can't handle a little nitpicking? 3) feels it's less their work just because of a little change? 4) can't defend their work and resist those 2c? This is advice for managing 2 year olds. As…

>This is advice for managing 2 year olds. That's exactly the vibe I got from reading this article. I immediately thought of someone trying to manage super-fragile millennials who wilt and pout without constant encouragement and affirmation. If I submit I project for scrutiny, I want constructive criticism and advice. The goal should to make the project as good as it can be, not manage the feelings of emotionally chal…

The point was though that if your 2 cents' worth isn't constructive, if it's not the difference that could "make the project as good as it can be", you shouldn't give it.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#78

Post by iopq »

unabst wrote: post #59

Huge Sivers fan! With that said, I'd take this advice way further. > The boss’s opinion is no better than anyone else’s. All opinions are no better. Does not matter who. Throw out opinions altogether. In America we are obsessed with "our right to our opinion" and somehow have confabulated this to equal our individuality, our exceptionalism, and our success. We're unique to begin with, exceptional is only a hard earne…

In terms of design, everything is an opinion. You can't prove one design is better than the other... unless you ask for multiple people's opinion. It boils down to opinion in the end.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#79

Post by virtualized »

Wow, what a bad example. That is called constructive criticism and is a very valuable tool in a company's toolbox of culture.

What I observed to be actually harmful is criticism of how an employee works: Tools, practices and habits. If your boss tells you that the build tool of your choice sucks without naming a better alternative or any constructive advice, that feels really bad and destroys motivation for the job.

Re: Don't add your 2 cents

#80

Post by baddox »

dietrichepp wrote: post #13
baddox wrote: post #4

Is it not possible to make it clear that your 2 cents is just a suggestion? This just seems like bad communication, and regardless of whose fault that is, the boss might as well try to solve it.

It's a "suggestion" from a direct superior in a hierarchical power structure. A little bit of communication isn't going to change the context. So no, it is not something simple like "bad communication". I think one of the main problems here is that people in power often feel like they have to justify themselves by giving technical feedback, even when it's not appropriate.

You're implying that no employer-employee or supervisor-supervised relationship can be such that suggestions from the former to the latter can be just that: suggestions.

This empirically isn't true, as I am one counterexample (as the employee).

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