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Wire open-sourced

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Re: Wire open-sourced

#111
post #2

A link to a GitHub organization isn't great.. I'd say this is better: https://medium.com/@wireapp/you-can-now-build-your-own-wire-... but even that doesn't clearly explain what Wire is. Visit https://wire.com to find out it's an encrypted video and group chat app.

I really hate HN posts that just link to an error page, or a spreadsheet, or a Github repo with no readme, or something else that makes no sense unless you already know whatever you're supposed to be taking from it. Please don't do this, everyone.

Re: Wire open-sourced

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does the Wire licence agreement allow you to create a standalone server though? https://github.com/wireapp/wire/blob/master/README.md "Additionally, if you choose to build an Open Source App, certain restrictions apply, as follows: a. You agree not to change the way the Open Source App connects and interacts with our servers" Even if the company behind Wire seems trustworthy, if I cared about security I wouldn't want…

If the end to end encryption is implemented correctly then you don't have to worry about what their server does.

You still have to worry about that because it still receives the so-called "metadata".

Re: Wire open-sourced

#113
post #105

I found a file that is available as either MIT or GPL. Or is it only available under a union of the terms of both licenses? An intersection? Who knows, IANAL. https://github.com/wireapp/wire-webapp/blob/0cf9bf4/aws/main... Why do people copy the license all over the place like that?

MIT has one condition: The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software. As the code include this, the author who distribute the code can thus prove in court that they are compliant with the wishes of the author/s of the MIT licensed software. The added GPL means that copies of this specific version also adds additional conditions that those…

IANAL but I thought the compatibility was only one way. I.e., you can use MIT code in a GLP project but you can't do the reverse. My understanding is if you use GPL code in an MIT project, you have to make your entire project GPL.

Re: Wire open-sourced

#114
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One privacy advantage of Wire is that it does not force you to upload your address book to their server.

I didn't see that option, but either way the fact remains that even after several years, nobody is using the app. As a business with a large full time staff that needs considerable ongoing capital to continue, the numbers do not bode well for its future. Maybe being open source will change that, but I can't see it being a significant factor for the hundreds of millions of users they need to even begin to catch up. I…

Surprisingly, the best feature of Wire has been audio quality. Security/privacy is a welcome bonus.

Re: Wire open-sourced

#115
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For now, isn't is still plain old boring OTR? No less secure (and because of its mature age, it had received more auditors attention), far more ubiquitous, and while not perfect, still doesn't seem to have too severe limitations that make its use too hard or impossible.

OTR doesn't work in asynchronous environments, which makes it infeasible to deploy on mobile devices. I think that's a pretty severe limitation in today's world. In terms of ubiquity, Signal Protocol is running on over two billion monthly active devices. I would be surprised if OTR's active install base exceeds a hundred thousand.

Doesn't it? Not to challenge the authority, but I believe the only requirements OTR impose are constraints on the initial presence (thus, lack of offline operation) and constraints on message ordering. Which doesn't seem too severe to me, if the saying about "always connected" world is true enough in reality. Maybe I'm deeply mistaken here. But, I mean, 99% of my conversations are when both participants are online, and it does work for me in practice (and I can't realistically replace it with Signal) - that's why I've had the opinion that it's still haven't gave up on "gold" yet.

As for ubiquity - 2 billion devices is great (and hope there will be more!), but I meant the other sort of it. I've ran OTR sessions over XMPP, ICQ, Skype and Telegram. I guess, it's a wrong sort of ubiquity, probably not something that works for the goal of "encryption for everyone", but it still works if I don't want to hop the services but layer security instead. Maybe that's too old-fashioned. Hope there will be Signal Protocol-based addons/libraries like this one day.

Re: Wire open-sourced

#116
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Do you know how they handle identity/usernames/contact discovery without central servers?

As far as I know, the identity is just a public key. You can add contacts only by either scanning a qr-code disayed on your contact's phone in person or by being introduced to each other by a mutual contact, so there is no real need for discovery. As there are no servers at all (not even federated), this also means that no one can even enumerate users. Torsten Grote, one of the projects main developers, explains the…

"No servers" doesn't feel quite right -- no dedicated servers, maybe, but the project depends on TOR, which has quite a lot of servers. I've not dug into the source, but I'm expecting each client to be using a TOR hidden service to allow peer-to-peer connections.

The ability of TOR to allow essentially roaming services like this is a feature I'm always surprised isn't used more often. And although it's not something I was ever going to actually get around to, something like Briar has been on my list of interesting thins to try to do for a while -- I'm really glad someone else has had a similar thought and been able to run with it :).

Re: Wire open-sourced

#117
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't see that option, but either way the fact remains that even after several years, nobody is using the app. As a business with a large full time staff that needs considerable ongoing capital to continue, the numbers do not bode well for its future. Maybe being open source will change that, but I can't see it being a significant factor for the hundreds of millions of users they need to even begin to catch up. I…

Surprisingly, the best feature of Wire has been audio quality. Security/privacy is a welcome bonus.

Is the audio quality good enough to make hundreds of millions of people switch from WhatsApp? They've been trying for a few years, and it hasn't happened. I think open sourcing the apps is probably a last gasp, and we're likely to see Wire shutting down soon. I've also heard they might be looking for a buyer.

Re: Wire open-sourced

#118

Not sure if these are for realsies, but there are some API keys in the webapp repository: https://github.com/wireapp/wire-webapp/blob/master/app/scrip... https://github.com/wireapp/wire-webapp/blob/master/app/scrip...

Thanks, nothing critical but we'll clear this up.

Re: Wire open-sourced

#119
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTR doesn't work in asynchronous environments, which makes it infeasible to deploy on mobile devices. I think that's a pretty severe limitation in today's world. In terms of ubiquity, Signal Protocol is running on over two billion monthly active devices. I would be surprised if OTR's active install base exceeds a hundred thousand.

Doesn't it? Not to challenge the authority, but I believe the only requirements OTR impose are constraints on the initial presence (thus, lack of offline operation) and constraints on message ordering. Which doesn't seem too severe to me, if the saying about "always connected" world is true enough in reality. Maybe I'm deeply mistaken here. But, I mean, 99% of my conversations are when both participants are online, a…

> Doesn't it? Not to challenge the authority, but I believe the only requirements OTR impose are constraints on the initial presence (thus, lack of offline operation) and constraints on message ordering.

It's an asynchronous world, trying to use a synchronous protocol in that world doesn't make a lot of sense. If you want to initiate an OTR session with your friend on an iPhone, you have to wait for them to pull the device out of their pocket and physically tap the notification (which just says something like 'you might get a message soon'), then receive the response (which might involve pulling the device out of your pocket and physically tapping the notification which says something like 'you can send a message now'), before you can send the actual message.

This isn't just "initial presence," either. OTR is a three-step ratchet, so if you want the benefits of forward secrecy, you have to "end" your OTR session after each conversation and "start" an OTR session at the beginning of the next one. Except we don't live in a world where there are "beginnings" and "endings" anymore. People aren't sitting down at their computers and chatting until they get up again, it's just one long asynchronous conversation now.

> I guess, it's a wrong sort of ubiquity, probably not something that works for the goal of "encryption for everyone", but it still works if I don't want to hop the services but layer security instead. Maybe that's too old-fashioned. Hope there will be Signal Protocol-based addons/libraries like this one day.

You can do this today if you want to, but what's the point when Signal Protocol is being baked into the messaging services themselves. Layering encryption has been a losing strategy for a decade or more now, building something that works so seamlessly that it can be a part of the default experience is actually showing progress.

Re: Wire open-sourced

#120
I wish they would have preserved the commit history. Future note to those open sourcing projects:

Preserve the commit history! It's very useful! Even if it takes more effort to review the history and remove stuff that you're not allowed to show or whatever.

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